Discussion:
Mayor addresses global warming with congestion pricing plan
(too old to reply)
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-09 04:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles. And
it is the kind of thinking that puts this mayor on the same trash heap of
history as Jimmy Carter and the metric system. It cuts too wide a swath to
be legitimate congestion pricing. LIRR peak/off is congestion pricing, and
if you are fair, it should apply to transit fares as well to encourage
employers to stagger work hours so there is less congestion. Why are you
building new convention centers if you penalise people for going to them?
They will become abandoned ruins commemorating the silliness of urban
verminage. I wonder how, if he has not been able to get the much simpler
plan of equalising bridge and tunnel tolls, how he will succeed in this. I
know plenty of people who drive an extra fifteen minutes to avoid tolls.

A major fraction of the traffic is caused by folks whose original or final
destination is NOT Manhattan. A crosstown highway or tunnel linking the two
midtown under-river tunnels seems imperative. If we can build one more Hudson
tunnel, then we can build one under land, given the new tunneling machines
available.

As the next worse cause of congestion is hovering, we should study how
zoning laws encouraging the creation of public spaces might not be used to
also encourage hovering in such spaces instead of busy streets.

In 1991 I came back from Japan and agitated in favor of emulating their
pedestrian overpasses on 57th & 34th. But today we have found a cheaper, more
innovative solution: crossing pedestrians mid-block. Do you remember how
folks dressed up as cattle when this was first proposed? We need more of this
kind of innovation. The biggest reason things don't get done in this town is
folks insist on getting everything their way, instead of compromising.

Another thing to consider (more to do with jaywalking and pedestrian
traffic, but quite relevant): When you make a mess on a sidewalk due to
construction, you should have to pay to close the sidewalk down. But if other
people on your side of the street also want to do work, they should pay a
reduced rate. The goal would be to force the disturbances to cluster so
pedestrians can cross and stay on the other side. With this kind of
incentive, hopefully, folks would arbitrage the penalties and wait so all the
disturbances would take place on the same block side
simultaneously. Similarly, I once lost an express bus (you know they don't
run frequently) on a crowded Rockefeller Ctr street because some street
vendor was using a garbage can as his place of business and no one who move
so I could catch the bus which was only two yards away.

Traffic Troubles By JOHN FALCOCCHIO [nysun.com April 13, 2007 professor of
transportation engineering at Brooklyn Poly] four key contributors that
should be considered in determining the policy strategy needed for Manhattan:
(1) Traffic lanes, especially curb lanes, are often used by vehicles stopped
or standing, thus creating bottleneck conditions. (2) Cruising for customers
generates half of all taxi mileage. (3) About 30% of traffic entering
Manhattan below 59th Street is going through and not to Manhattan. For Canal
Street, through-traffic can get as high as 40%. (4) About 10% of the traffic
in Manhattan is generated by drivers cruising for a curb parking space..
focus on improving traffic mobility through traffic engineering improvements
and more efficient enforcement of curb lane regulations; developing new
regulations limiting taxi cruising, and implementing congestion pricing
techniques that specifically discourage both through-trips and cruising by
drivers searching for a parking space

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
c***@gmail.com
2007-06-09 12:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles. And
it is the kind of thinking that puts this mayor on the same trash heap of
history as Jimmy Carter and the metric system. It cuts too wide a swath to
be legitimate congestion pricing. LIRR peak/off is congestion pricing, and
if you are fair, it should apply to transit fares as well to encourage
employers to stagger work hours so there is less congestion. Why are you
building new convention centers if you penalise people for going to them?
They will become abandoned ruins commemorating the silliness of urban
verminage. I wonder how, if he has not been able to get the much simpler
plan of equalising bridge and tunnel tolls, how he will succeed in this. I
know plenty of people who drive an extra fifteen minutes to avoid tolls.
A major fraction of the traffic is caused by folks whose original or final
destination is NOT Manhattan. A crosstown highway or tunnel linking the two
midtown under-river tunnels seems imperative. If we can build one more Hudson
tunnel, then we can build one under land, given the new tunneling machines
available.
As the next worse cause of congestion is hovering, we should study how
zoning laws encouraging the creation of public spaces might not be used to
also encourage hovering in such spaces instead of busy streets.
In 1991 I came back from Japan and agitated in favor of emulating their
pedestrian overpasses on 57th & 34th. But today we have found a cheaper, more
innovative solution: crossing pedestrians mid-block. Do you remember how
folks dressed up as cattle when this was first proposed? We need more of this
kind of innovation. The biggest reason things don't get done in this town is
folks insist on getting everything their way, instead of compromising.
Another thing to consider (more to do with jaywalking and pedestrian
traffic, but quite relevant): When you make a mess on a sidewalk due to
construction, you should have to pay to close the sidewalk down. But if other
people on your side of the street also want to do work, they should pay a
reduced rate. The goal would be to force the disturbances to cluster so
pedestrians can cross and stay on the other side. With this kind of
incentive, hopefully, folks would arbitrage the penalties and wait so all the
disturbances would take place on the same block side
simultaneously. Similarly, I once lost an express bus (you know they don't
run frequently) on a crowded Rockefeller Ctr street because some street
vendor was using a garbage can as his place of business and no one who move
so I could catch the bus which was only two yards away.
Traffic Troubles By JOHN FALCOCCHIO [nysun.com April 13, 2007 professor of
transportation engineering at Brooklyn Poly] four key contributors that
(1) Traffic lanes, especially curb lanes, are often used by vehicles stopped
or standing, thus creating bottleneck conditions. (2) Cruising for customers
generates half of all taxi mileage. (3) About 30% of traffic entering
Manhattan below 59th Street is going through and not to Manhattan. For Canal
Street, through-traffic can get as high as 40%. (4) About 10% of the traffic
in Manhattan is generated by drivers cruising for a curb parking space..
focus on improving traffic mobility through traffic engineering improvements
and more efficient enforcement of curb lane regulations; developing new
regulations limiting taxi cruising, and implementing congestion pricing
techniques that specifically discourage both through-trips and cruising by
drivers searching for a parking space
How about- shock of shocks- increasing the amount of parking
available, instead of reducing it? Put the congestion pricing into
effect for the environmental benefits, but reduce the fee for
carpooling. There are police officers checking for EZ-passes and
carpooling at the entrance to the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel during
morning rush; put some on the bridges too. Put EZ-pass carpool lanes
into effect on all toll crossings, for that matter.

Chris
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 14:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles. And
it is the kind of thinking that puts this mayor on the same trash heap of
history as Jimmy Carter and the metric system. It cuts too wide a swath to
be legitimate congestion pricing. LIRR peak/off is congestion pricing, and
if you are fair, it should apply to transit fares as well to encourage
employers to stagger work hours so there is less congestion. Why are you
building new convention centers if you penalise people for going to them?
They will become abandoned ruins commemorating the silliness of urban
verminage. I wonder how, if he has not been able to get the much simpler
plan of equalising bridge and tunnel tolls, how he will succeed in this. I
know plenty of people who drive an extra fifteen minutes to avoid tolls.
There are worse things to have vendettas against than automobiles. Cigars?
Post by c***@gmail.com
How about- shock of shocks- increasing the amount of parking
available, instead of reducing it? Put the congestion pricing into
effect for the environmental benefits, but reduce the fee for
carpooling. There are police officers checking for EZ-passes and
carpooling at the entrance to the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel during
morning rush; put some on the bridges too. Put EZ-pass carpool lanes
into effect on all toll crossings, for that matter.
People cruising for parking is probably a major problem too. One
solution I read about might be to raise the costs of street parking to
the point where there is always some space available.
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 02:53:37 UTC
Permalink
*+-There are worse things to have vendettas against than automobiles. Cigars?

The first time I met Bloomberg at NYVG in 1993 he bragged that he got
ahead by being the first one in to light John Gutfriend's cigar in the
morning. So he's banning cigars to make sure no one else follows his path?

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 04:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
*+-There are worse things to have vendettas against than automobiles. Cigars?
The first time I met Bloomberg at NYVG in 1993 he bragged that he got
ahead by being the first one in to light John Gutfriend's cigar in the
morning. So he's banning cigars to make sure no one else follows his path?
Don't know. It doesn't really bother me anymore though.

I was still smoking when he banned it, and I was repulsed by the idea
that it could be banned like that. Then I started enjoying the ban,
because I would go outside and meet other people smoking. The ban
happened in the spring, so my friends and I figured it would just be
revoked anyway once winter came - nobody would want to smoke a cigarette
in the freezing dead of winter, afterall!

Then I started getting disturbed that I was going out and ONLY meeting
other smokers. After a few months, local bars and whatnot started
realizing enforcement was lax anyway, so I'd go out after midnight and
smoke with locals.

Now I just don't give a fuck because I quit smoking, am happy I quit
smoking, and can't see why I ever even deluded myself into thinking it
was pleasurable in the first place. I'm still trying to figure out what
to do with all my cigars.
Steven M. O'Neill
2007-06-09 13:15:27 UTC
Permalink
<***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com> wrote:

[blah blah blah]
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
A major fraction of the traffic is caused by folks whose
original or final destination is NOT Manhattan. A crosstown
highway or tunnel linking the two midtown under-river tunnels
seems imperative. If we can build one more Hudson tunnel, then
we can build one under land, given the new tunneling machines
available.
The proposal is to continue to allow the perimeter "highways"
toll-free, presumably for the purpose of accommodating through-
traffic. Of course, the idea is also to move a lot of the Canal
St. through-traffic to the Verrazano Narrows Bridge which is,
you know, designed to handle it.
--
Steven O'Neill ***@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
c***@gmail.com
2007-06-09 16:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
[blah blah blah]
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
A major fraction of the traffic is caused by folks whose
original or final destination is NOT Manhattan. A crosstown
highway or tunnel linking the two midtown under-river tunnels
seems imperative. If we can build one more Hudson tunnel, then
we can build one under land, given the new tunneling machines
available.
The proposal is to continue to allow the perimeter "highways"
toll-free, presumably for the purpose of accommodating through-
traffic. Of course, the idea is also to move a lot of the Canal
St. through-traffic to the Verrazano Narrows Bridge which is,
you know, designed to handle it.
You don't see the VNB too often during morning rush, do you? It's
often stop-and-go. So if you have a jam on the VND and traffic on
Canal St., and they both cost about the same, but the Holland Tunnel
puts you 5 miles closer to your destination...

Chris
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
--
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
Steven M. O'Neill
2007-06-09 17:55:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
You don't see the VNB too often during morning rush, do you? It's
often stop-and-go.
This is much better than a traffic monsoon on Canal street,
isn't it?
--
Steven O'Neill ***@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
c***@gmail.com
2007-06-09 19:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by c***@gmail.com
You don't see the VNB too often during morning rush, do you? It's
often stop-and-go.
This is much better than a traffic monsoon on Canal street,
isn't it?
--
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
Actually, I often drive across Canal Street from the Manhattan Bridge
to West Street in the morning. Granted, it's before the worst of the
rush, at around 7:30AM. It moves better than the bridge, to be honest.

On top of that, it seems that a fair bit of the congestion on Canal
Street comes from people walking in the street, and street vendors. I
keep wanting to make them a deal- they stay out of the street, and I
won't drive on the sidewalk. I see that on Broadway near Canal they've
started extending the sidewalk into the right traffic lane, and
they've made it a dedicated bus stop. It seems to help, even if it
does cause a bit of a bottleneck for road traffic.

Chris
Steven M. O'Neill
2007-06-09 21:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
On top of that, it seems that a fair bit of the congestion on Canal
Street comes from people walking in the street, and street vendors.
All the more reason to transfer the motor traffic to the bridge.

Why do we reward the least space-efficient mode by giving it the
most space?
--
Steven O'Neill ***@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
c***@gmail.com
2007-06-10 05:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by c***@gmail.com
On top of that, it seems that a fair bit of the congestion on Canal
Street comes from people walking in the street, and street vendors.
All the more reason to transfer the motor traffic to the bridge.
Why do we reward the least space-efficient mode by giving it the
most space?
Why ignore what I said earlier? As long as the bridge is as congested
as Canal Street (and it is) and the Holland Tunnel puts people closer
to their destination, people are going to drive on Canal Street.

Chris
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
--
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
Sancho Panza
2007-06-09 22:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
[blah blah blah]
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
A major fraction of the traffic is caused by folks whose
original or final destination is NOT Manhattan. A crosstown
highway or tunnel linking the two midtown under-river tunnels
seems imperative. If we can build one more Hudson tunnel, then
we can build one under land, given the new tunneling machines
available.
The proposal is to continue to allow the perimeter "highways"
toll-free, presumably for the purpose of accommodating through-
traffic. Of course, the idea is also to move a lot of the Canal
St. through-traffic to the Verrazano Narrows Bridge which is,
you know, designed to handle it.
You don't see the VNB too often during morning rush, do you? It's
often stop-and-go. So if you have a jam on the VND and traffic on
Canal St., and they both cost about the same, but the Holland Tunnel
puts you 5 miles closer to your destination...
Chris
This is westbound you're talking about, right?
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 02:44:47 UTC
Permalink
*+-The proposal is to continue to allow the perimeter "highways"
*+-toll-free, presumably for the purpose of accommodating through-
*+-traffic. Of course, the idea is also to move a lot of the Canal
*+-St. through-traffic to the Verrazano Narrows Bridge which is,
*+-you know, designed to handle it.

Good point. That may work. I knew someone who attended St Johns in Queens but
lived in Newark and commuted via Verazzano. I also know someone from Queens
who worked in Newark, and took the xBx, GWB. Yet all the cabs I ever
took went along Atlantic Av to Brooklyn Bridge.

So, might we conclude that equalising the bridge/tunnel fares would
help reduce traffic that is just going thru instead of to Manhattan?

How much?
- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
George Conklin
2007-06-09 13:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
c***@gmail.com
2007-06-09 16:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.

Chris
George Conklin
2007-06-09 17:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the middle
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The rich
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes to see
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Steven M. O'Neill
2007-06-09 17:57:52 UTC
Permalink
The rich would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and
similar schemes to see the middle class pushed back out of
sight too.
Please present evidence that the middle class currently drives
to Manhattan during the day on weekdays.
--
Steven O'Neill ***@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
c***@gmail.com
2007-06-09 19:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
The rich would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and
similar schemes to see the middle class pushed back out of
sight too.
Please present evidence that the middle class currently drives
to Manhattan during the day on weekdays.
I drive every day, because overall it's cheaper for me to do so, not
to mention more time-efficient. Coming from Rockaway, and taking my
entire family into Manhattan in a relatively fuel-efficient vehicle,
is cheaper than all of us riding the train. In addition, my wife and
I sometimes work quite late, so our kid heads home on the train and we
commute home together. All of this, of course, is made even more
desirable by the abysmal mass transit service in Rockaway.

But I know I am an exception.

Chris
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
--
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
George Conklin
2007-06-09 20:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
The rich would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and
similar schemes to see the middle class pushed back out of
sight too.
Please present evidence that the middle class currently drives
to Manhattan during the day on weekdays.
I drive every day, because overall it's cheaper for me to do so, not
to mention more time-efficient. Coming from Rockaway, and taking my
entire family into Manhattan in a relatively fuel-efficient vehicle,
is cheaper than all of us riding the train. In addition, my wife and
I sometimes work quite late, so our kid heads home on the train and we
commute home together. All of this, of course, is made even more
desirable by the abysmal mass transit service in Rockaway.
But I know I am an exception.
Chris
There are probably enough "exceptions" to make the system work for the
mayor. Join the standees in the subway and you will be a good environmental
citizen according to the mayor. On the other hand, I am so glad I don't
live in Brooklyn anymore.
George Conklin
2007-06-09 21:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
The rich would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and
similar schemes to see the middle class pushed back out of
sight too.
Please present evidence that the middle class currently drives
to Manhattan during the day on weekdays.
I drive every day, because overall it's cheaper for me to do so, not
to mention more time-efficient. Coming from Rockaway, and taking my
entire family into Manhattan in a relatively fuel-efficient vehicle,
is cheaper than all of us riding the train. In addition, my wife and
I sometimes work quite late, so our kid heads home on the train and we
commute home together. All of this, of course, is made even more
desirable by the abysmal mass transit service in Rockaway.
But I know I am an exception.
Question: how would you use public transportation from Far Rockaway to
Manhattan? The bus to Flatbush Avenue IRT? Just wondering......
jdoe
2007-06-09 22:15:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 21:01:59 GMT, "George Conklin"
Post by George Conklin
Question: how would you use public transportation from Far Rockaway to
Manhattan? The bus to Flatbush Avenue IRT? Just wondering......
that's one way, or you could take a bus to 116 st and get the a train
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 22:53:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Question: how would you use public transportation from Far Rockaway to
Manhattan? The bus to Flatbush Avenue IRT? Just wondering......
It may not be the fastest way, but the A Train offers a one-seat ride
between Manhattan and Far Rockaway. I believe the trip from 207th
Street to the Rockaways is supposed to be the longest rapid transit trip
in the world.
Steven M. O'Neill
2007-06-09 21:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Please present evidence that the middle class currently drives
to Manhattan during the day on weekdays.
I drive every day, because overall it's cheaper for me to do so, not
to mention more time-efficient. Coming from Rockaway, and taking my
entire family into Manhattan in a relatively fuel-efficient vehicle,
is cheaper than all of us riding the train. In addition, my wife and
I sometimes work quite late, so our kid heads home on the train and we
commute home together. All of this, of course, is made even more
desirable by the abysmal mass transit service in Rockaway.
That's fine. Adding another $8 divided by three people isn't
likely to change that equation for you, is it?
Post by c***@gmail.com
But I know I am an exception.
--
Steven O'Neill ***@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 20:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the middle
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The rich
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes to see
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.
George Conklin
2007-06-09 20:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the middle
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The rich
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes to see
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.
Liberals have changed sides since 1930 when it comes to housing and
planning.
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 23:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the
middle
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The rich
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes to
see
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.
Liberals have changed sides since 1930 when it comes to housing and
planning.
I don't really see how. If anything, they pander to those types of
people more than ever nowadays, or at least certain segments of that
demographic. Actually, they do it to the exclusion of many of their
other natural constituencies.
George Conklin
2007-06-10 00:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the
middle
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The rich
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes to
see
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.
Liberals have changed sides since 1930 when it comes to housing and
planning.
I don't really see how. If anything, they pander to those types of
people more than ever nowadays, or at least certain segments of that
demographic. Actually, they do it to the exclusion of many of their
other natural constituencies.
That makes no sense because the right wing is the group which now speaks up
in favor of someone owning a house which is not a condo, connected to
another house or shared or something like that.
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 00:27:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the
middle
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The
rich
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes
to
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
see
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.
Liberals have changed sides since 1930 when it comes to housing and
planning.
I don't really see how. If anything, they pander to those types of
people more than ever nowadays, or at least certain segments of that
demographic. Actually, they do it to the exclusion of many of their
other natural constituencies.
That makes no sense because the right wing is the group which now speaks up
in favor of someone owning a house which is not a condo, connected to
another house or shared or something like that.
Of course it makes sense, especially when you consider that liberals are
right-wing. Chris Dodd is a pretty big home ownership thumper.
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-09 23:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the middle
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The rich
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes to see
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.-
(It was the "liberals" who gave the returning GIs the opportunity to
buy their little Levittown houses.)
George Conklin
2007-06-10 00:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the middle
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The rich
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes to see
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.-
(It was the "liberals" who gave the returning GIs the opportunity to
buy their little Levittown houses.)
No, the liberal intellectuals were heavily, sharply and totally against
Levittown. They predicted the end of the world, community and everything
else. Now the cry is "Save the Land." From what? Land is not lost to
development, especially when converts farmland to something more useful.
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 00:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the
middle
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The
rich
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes
to see
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.-
(It was the "liberals" who gave the returning GIs the opportunity to
buy their little Levittown houses.)
Not to mention supporting expansion of road networks and the interstates
for the better part of the past century, including Conklin's beloved
allegedly free market gas taxes.
Post by George Conklin
No, the liberal intellectuals were heavily, sharply and totally against
Levittown. They predicted the end of the world, community and everything
else. Now the cry is "Save the Land." From what? Land is not lost to
development, especially when converts farmland to something more useful.
Got any cite for that? Or is this more revisionism?
Sancho Panza
2007-06-10 00:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the
middle
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The
rich
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes
to see
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.-
(It was the "liberals" who gave the returning GIs the opportunity to
buy their little Levittown houses.)
Not to mention supporting expansion of road networks and the interstates
for the better part of the past century, including Conklin's beloved
allegedly free market gas taxes.
Post by George Conklin
No, the liberal intellectuals were heavily, sharply and totally against
Levittown. They predicted the end of the world, community and everything
else. Now the cry is "Save the Land." From what? Land is not lost to
development, especially when converts farmland to something more useful.
Got any cite for that? Or is this more revisionism?
Besides the historical bemoaning of the loss of the potato fields, it is
also valuable to note the advent of rigorous rent control in New York City,
signaling a major slowdown, if not complete halt, in private residential
construction, certainly for middle and lower classes.
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:42:50 UTC
Permalink
*+-Besides the historical bemoaning of the loss of the potato fields, it is
*+-also valuable to note the advent of rigorous rent control in New York City,
*+-signaling a major slowdown, if not complete halt, in private residential
*+-construction, certainly for middle and lower classes.

Not to mention the Kemp HUD study correlating homelessness with rent control

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
George Conklin
2007-06-10 00:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
As will the limousine conservative. Or anyone with the bucks.
Anyone in a limo profits from this the most.
Chris
The war on the middle class comes from both ends. Liberals want the
middle
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
class forced onto mass transit and out of single-family homes. The
rich
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
would like to see toll roads, congestion pricing and similar schemes
to see
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
the middle class pushed back out of sight too. The current APA-style
planning just loves the well-to-do.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.-
(It was the "liberals" who gave the returning GIs the opportunity to
buy their little Levittown houses.)
Not to mention supporting expansion of road networks and the interstates
for the better part of the past century, including Conklin's beloved
allegedly free market gas taxes.
Gas taxes pay for only half of what they did in 1960. They are too low
to maintain our road system.
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
No, the liberal intellectuals were heavily, sharply and totally against
Levittown. They predicted the end of the world, community and everything
else. Now the cry is "Save the Land." From what? Land is not lost to
development, especially when converts farmland to something more useful.
Got any cite for that? Or is this more revisionism?
Try reading the book by Gans, "The Levittowners." It is all in there. And
some of us actually studied with others who moved to Levittown to document
the decline of the world until they realized that they had made a bad
mistake listening to the liberals of the day.
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 00:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Try reading the book by Gans, "The Levittowners." It is all in there. And
some of us actually studied with others who moved to Levittown to document
the decline of the world until they realized that they had made a bad
mistake listening to the liberals of the day.
Wait, I'm to spend $30 on Amafuckingzon.com to validate somebody else's
claim? Does anyone else notice how George likes to tell other people to
buy books when he can't answer a question?
George Conklin
2007-06-10 11:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Try reading the book by Gans, "The Levittowners." It is all in there.
And
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
some of us actually studied with others who moved to Levittown to document
the decline of the world until they realized that they had made a bad
mistake listening to the liberals of the day.
Wait, I'm to spend $30 on Amafuckingzon.com to validate somebody else's
claim? Does anyone else notice how George likes to tell other people to
buy books when he can't answer a question?
You asked for a cite and I gave you one.
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-10 05:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.-
(It was the "liberals" who gave the returning GIs the opportunity to
buy their little Levittown houses.)
No, the liberal intellectuals were heavily, sharply and totally against
Levittown. They predicted the end of the world, community and everything
else. Now the cry is "Save the Land." From what? Land is not lost to
development, especially when converts farmland to something more useful.-
There's no point in asking _you_ to provide evidence to back your
assertion, is there?
George Conklin
2007-06-10 11:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Where do you come up with this stuff? If it weren't for "liberals,"
we'd probably never have had so many single-family homes in the first
place.-
(It was the "liberals" who gave the returning GIs the opportunity to
buy their little Levittown houses.)
No, the liberal intellectuals were heavily, sharply and totally against
Levittown. They predicted the end of the world, community and everything
else. Now the cry is "Save the Land." From what? Land is not lost to
development, especially when converts farmland to something more useful.-
There's no point in asking _you_ to provide evidence to back your
assertion, is there?
He asked for a cite and I gave him one...and a famous one too. Try a
library.
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:02:01 UTC
Permalink
The rich don't want the rifraf disturbing their enjoyment of "nature"

Soc Darwinism Am Thought Hofstadter 1944 1955 Beacon 0807054615

p51 William Graham Sumner of Yale.. great Puritan preacher, an exponent of
the classical pessimism of Ricardo and Malthus, and an assimilator and
popularizer of evolution.. Ricardian principles of inevitability and laissez
faire with a hard-bitten determinism that seemed to be at once Calvinistic
and scientific

p147 Darwin was generally thought to confirm Malthus' law, Patten said,
but in one critical respect Darwin's theory was the exact opposite of
Malthusianism. Malthus assumed that man has a definite and unalterable set of
attributes; but Darwinism holds that man is pliable and circumstances
determine his characteristics. On true Darwinian premises one can assume no
such thing as a permanent natural rate of increase; for the human rate of
increase would be susceptible to change in accordance with ma's surroundings
and circumstances [Premises 1885 pp78-9]

p162 In 1910 a group of eugenists, with the financial assistance of Mrs E
H Harriman, founded at Cold Spring the Eugenics Record Office, which became
a laboratory and a fountainhead of propaganda

p197 Klaus Wagner had said in his Krieg (1906); "the modern natural
scientists see in a war a propitious mode of selection"

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-09 17:18:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky? It's now obvious to
nyc.transit why you are so hated in all those car groups that keep
getting crossposted here.

Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.

And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
George Conklin
2007-06-09 17:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
Scott M. Kozel
2007-06-09 20:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal

Excerpt:

'Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term for a wealthy
liberal person who claims to have a deep concern for the poor, but is
not actually directly engaged with them on a day to day basis. The term
can also carry the connotation of expressing concern for the poor but
not spending any considerable portion of one's personal time, effort, or
wealth to help them.'

'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-09 20:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal
'Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term for a wealthy
liberal person who claims to have a deep concern for the poor, but is
not actually directly engaged with them on a day to day basis. The term
can also carry the connotation of expressing concern for the poor but
not spending any considerable portion of one's personal time, effort, or
wealth to help them.'
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
And can you cite all the wonderful contributions made by Mayor
Procaccino?
Scott M. Kozel
2007-06-09 20:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal
'Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term for a wealthy
liberal person who claims to have a deep concern for the poor, but is
not actually directly engaged with them on a day to day basis. The term
can also carry the connotation of expressing concern for the poor but
not spending any considerable portion of one's personal time, effort, or
wealth to help them.'
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
And can you cite all the wonderful contributions made by Mayor
Procaccino?
'In Australia and New Zealand, a roughly equivalent insult of chardonnay
socialist is used; in the United Kingdom the phrase champagne socialist
or Bollinger Bolshevik is preferred, and in France such people are
referred to as the gauche caviar ("caviar left"). In Portugal "Esquerda
caviar" is used, basically a direct translation of the French term. In
the United States, the synonymous phrases "latte liberal" and "lakefront
liberal" are sometimes used.'

'In Peru, many of the Maoists and Fidel Castro supporters who worked in
state agencies during the governments of Valentín Paniagua (2000-2001)
and Alejandro Toledo (2001 - 2006) had very high wages in comparison
with the average population income; they were given the name of
"Izquierda Caviar" or "Izquierda Rosa", terms similar to gauche caviar.'

'In the Netherlands, a near equivalent of "limousine liberal" would be
"salon socialist". The point of a salon socialist, however, is not that
he does not spend money charitably, but rather that he or she is not
actively involved in the class struggle.'
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-09 23:47:41 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 9, 4:14 pm, "Scott M. Kozel" <***@comcast.net> wrote:

The limousine
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal
'Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term for a wealthy
liberal person who claims to have a deep concern for the poor, but is
not actually directly engaged with them on a day to day basis. The term
can also carry the connotation of expressing concern for the poor but
not spending any considerable portion of one's personal time, effort, or
wealth to help them.'
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
And can you cite all the wonderful contributions made by Mayor
Procaccino?
Post by Scott M. Kozel
'In
the United States, the synonymous phrases "latte liberal" and "lakefront
liberal" are sometimes used.'
I don't know what a latte liberal may be, but there is no question
whatsoever -- look at any political map since 1960 or earlier, i.e.
going back to the lone voice of Leon Despres -- that Chicago's
liberals are clustered along the lakefront. There is of course no
association with limousines, so one wonders why this paragraph comes
from that wiki article.
George Conklin
2007-06-09 20:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal
'Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term for a wealthy
liberal person who claims to have a deep concern for the poor, but is
not actually directly engaged with them on a day to day basis. The term
can also carry the connotation of expressing concern for the poor but
not spending any considerable portion of one's personal time, effort, or
wealth to help them.'
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
And can you cite all the wonderful contributions made by Mayor
Procaccino?
He identified the problem.
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-09 23:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Scott M. Kozel
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
And can you cite all the wonderful contributions made by Mayor
Procaccino?
He identified the problem.-
It obviously wasn't a problem for New Yorkers. Who won that election?
George Conklin
2007-06-10 00:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Scott M. Kozel
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
And can you cite all the wonderful contributions made by Mayor
Procaccino?
He identified the problem.-
It obviously wasn't a problem for New Yorkers. Who won that election?
No, New Yorkers are limousine liberals. That is why the term stuck.
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:37:29 UTC
Permalink
*+-> > Procaccino?

*+-It obviously wasn't a problem for New Yorkers. Who won that election?

Mayor Bimbsley


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
Sancho Panza
2007-06-09 22:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal
'Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term for a wealthy
liberal person who claims to have a deep concern for the poor, but is
not actually directly engaged with them on a day to day basis. The term
can also carry the connotation of expressing concern for the poor but
not spending any considerable portion of one's personal time, effort, or
wealth to help them.'
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
And can you cite all the wonderful contributions made by Mayor
Procaccino?
Uhhhhh, he was comptroller in the Beame years. Good enough, right?
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-09 23:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal
'Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term for a wealthy
liberal person who claims to have a deep concern for the poor, but is
not actually directly engaged with them on a day to day basis. The term
can also carry the connotation of expressing concern for the poor but
not spending any considerable portion of one's personal time, effort, or
wealth to help them.'
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
And can you cite all the wonderful contributions made by Mayor
Procaccino?
Uhhhhh, he was comptroller in the Beame years. Good enough, right?-
I don't see either of them getting a commemorative bust in City Hall's
Statuary Hall any time soon ...

WNYC-TV has a half-hour program on Gracie Mansion, and its only
occupant since Wagner who isn't mentioned is the little accountant.
George Conklin
2007-06-09 20:15:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal
'Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term for a wealthy
liberal person who claims to have a deep concern for the poor, but is
not actually directly engaged with them on a day to day basis. The term
can also carry the connotation of expressing concern for the poor but
not spending any considerable portion of one's personal time, effort, or
wealth to help them.'
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
Thanks for the post on 'Limousine liberal.' Of course, strictly
speaking the current mayor is a genuine conservate limousine rider. No
longer do the rich have to pose as liberals in NYC.
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-09 23:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal
'Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term for a wealthy
liberal person who claims to have a deep concern for the poor, but is
not actually directly engaged with them on a day to day basis. The term
can also carry the connotation of expressing concern for the poor but
not spending any considerable portion of one's personal time, effort, or
wealth to help them.'
'The term was coined by 1969 Democratic New York City mayoral hopeful
Mario Procaccino to describe Mayor John Lindsay and his wealthy
Manhattan backers.'
Thanks for the post on 'Limousine liberal.' Of course, strictly
speaking the current mayor is a genuine conservate limousine rider. No
longer do the rich have to pose as liberals in NYC.-
How ignorant can you be? He takes the subway to work.

He is only nominally a Republican because he could buy that nomination
without having to alienate the Democrats by entering the primary and
defeating a number of popular candidates. He has been a powerful
supporter of liberal and Democratic causes his entire life.

Are you not even aware of the buzz about an Independent run for
president (evidently in alliance with Chuck Hegel, the antiwar
Republican)?
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 02:38:46 UTC
Permalink
*+-He is only nominally a Republican because he could buy that nomination

Well, in his current mental mode, he would do worse than John Anderson.

Giuliani was no Republican either - he voted for McGovern. But when Giuliani
supported Cuomo, the GOP response made Giuliani behave himself.

The GOP was soft on Bloomberg because of 9/11 and now suffers the result.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 02:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Bloomberg has his good points, he's smart and honest and well-meaning. He
just hangs around too many effete affected urban vermin at cocktail
parties. I've seen friends change views as the moved in and out of
Madhutden. I therefore believe that not only should WDC be denied the vote,
but the vote ban should be extended to sounth of 9th Street.



- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 20:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by George Conklin
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
It originated in NYC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal
Yay! Wikipedia!

I don't like that definition. I think I'll change it!
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-09 20:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
When were you last in NY, conky?

Who do you think it refers to?

When do you think it was last used?
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 20:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
Assuming this even works, it will probably be great for the "average
person." If they need to drive to Manhattan in a timely manner, they'll
actually be able to.
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky?
It is a common political term in NY.
Among the ignorant, perhaps.

A limousine liberal is caricature of a snooty, usually urban politician
or party boss who is out of touch with "real" people, like George Conklin.

The term probably originates with Kennedy types, but nowadays gets
applied to relatively socially permissive Republicans, such as Hillary
Clinton, as well.
c***@gmail.com
2007-06-09 19:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky? It's now obvious to
nyc.transit why you are so hated in all those car groups that keep
getting crossposted here.
Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.
And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
They don't cause congestion; they just demand that Bumblerberg get all
the other cars out of their way.

Chris
George Conklin
2007-06-09 20:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky? It's now obvious to
nyc.transit why you are so hated in all those car groups that keep
getting crossposted here.
Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.
And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
They don't cause congestion; they just demand that Bumblerberg get all
the other cars out of their way.
Chris
I noticed that the mayor wants only hybrids as taxis, but still NYC
strictly limits the number of taxis too. A true conservative would allow
anyone who can post the insurance a taxi license and let the market
determine the number of taxis.
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 20:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky? It's now obvious to
nyc.transit why you are so hated in all those car groups that keep
getting crossposted here.
Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.
And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
They don't cause congestion; they just demand that Bumblerberg get all
the other cars out of their way.
Chris
I noticed that the mayor wants only hybrids as taxis, but still NYC
strictly limits the number of taxis too. A true conservative would allow
anyone who can post the insurance a taxi license and let the market
determine the number of taxis.
Why would a "true conservative" do anything of the sort?
George Conklin
2007-06-09 20:59:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky? It's now obvious to
nyc.transit why you are so hated in all those car groups that keep
getting crossposted here.
Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.
And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
They don't cause congestion; they just demand that Bumblerberg get all
the other cars out of their way.
Chris
I noticed that the mayor wants only hybrids as taxis, but still NYC
strictly limits the number of taxis too. A true conservative would allow
anyone who can post the insurance a taxi license and let the market
determine the number of taxis.
Why would a "true conservative" do anything of the sort?
A true conservative would let the market determine the number of cabs, so
there would be some in Far Rockaway, for example.
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 23:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky? It's now obvious to
nyc.transit why you are so hated in all those car groups that keep
getting crossposted here.
Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.
And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
They don't cause congestion; they just demand that Bumblerberg get all
the other cars out of their way.
Chris
I noticed that the mayor wants only hybrids as taxis, but still NYC
strictly limits the number of taxis too. A true conservative would
allow
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
anyone who can post the insurance a taxi license and let the market
determine the number of taxis.
Why would a "true conservative" do anything of the sort?
A true conservative would let the market determine the number of cabs, so
there would be some in Far Rockaway, for example.
Why would there be some in Rockaway? The market might determine that
zero are needed there.

Besides, car services tend to fill the niche for longer-distance cab
rides that I would expect would be popular in the Rockaways.
George Conklin
2007-06-10 00:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky? It's now obvious to
nyc.transit why you are so hated in all those car groups that keep
getting crossposted here.
Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.
And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
They don't cause congestion; they just demand that Bumblerberg get all
the other cars out of their way.
Chris
I noticed that the mayor wants only hybrids as taxis, but still NYC
strictly limits the number of taxis too. A true conservative would
allow
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
anyone who can post the insurance a taxi license and let the market
determine the number of taxis.
Why would a "true conservative" do anything of the sort?
A true conservative would let the market determine the number of cabs, so
there would be some in Far Rockaway, for example.
Why would there be some in Rockaway? The market might determine that
zero are needed there.
Like now, right?
Post by Bolwerk
Besides, car services tend to fill the niche for longer-distance cab
rides that I would expect would be popular in the Rockaways.
You mean the illegal ones?
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 00:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky? It's now obvious to
nyc.transit why you are so hated in all those car groups that keep
getting crossposted here.
Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.
And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
They don't cause congestion; they just demand that Bumblerberg get
all
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
the other cars out of their way.
Chris
I noticed that the mayor wants only hybrids as taxis, but still NYC
strictly limits the number of taxis too. A true conservative would
allow
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
anyone who can post the insurance a taxi license and let the market
determine the number of taxis.
Why would a "true conservative" do anything of the sort?
A true conservative would let the market determine the number of cabs,
so
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
there would be some in Far Rockaway, for example.
Why would there be some in Rockaway? The market might determine that
zero are needed there.
Like now, right?
They aren't even that common in places where you'd expect them to be,
like Williamsburg.
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Besides, car services tend to fill the niche for longer-distance cab
rides that I would expect would be popular in the Rockaways.
You mean the illegal ones?
No, they aren't illegal. Yellow cabs with medallions are the only cabs
permitted to pick up passengers who hail them.

Car services are allowed to pick up passengers who call a dispatcher.
I'm not sure how easy it is to get a license to run a car service, but
they're pretty common, especially for longer-distance trips. (Often,
they pick up passengers anyway in their spare time.)
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-09 23:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on
automobiles.
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The
limousine
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal," conky? It's now obvious to
nyc.transit why you are so hated in all those car groups that keep
getting crossposted here.
Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.
And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
They don't cause congestion; they just demand that Bumblerberg get all
the other cars out of their way.
Chris
I noticed that the mayor wants only hybrids as taxis, but still NYC
strictly limits the number of taxis too. A true conservative would
allow
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
anyone who can post the insurance a taxi license and let the market
determine the number of taxis.
Why would a "true conservative" do anything of the sort?
A true conservative would let the market determine the number of cabs, so
there would be some in Far Rockaway, for example.-
How could a "true conservative" ever become Mayor of New York?

Hasn't the truth about Giuliani percolated to wherever you are yet?
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:12:25 UTC
Permalink
*+- I noticed that the mayor wants only hybrids as taxis, but still NYC
*+-strictly limits the number of taxis too. A true conservative would allow
*+-anyone who can post the insurance a taxi license and let the market
*+-determine the number of taxis.

In Knudknick Schitty, taxis are a feudal vassalhood as medalion cost six
hundred thousand dollars, and "uninsured" busses and taxis are persecuted.

Walt Williams wrote tomes on this I need not reproduce here.




- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Hybrids could be ideal for the stop-and-go traffic of Manhattan.

I would have no problem if they gave them a break on congestion pricing.

Since hybrids cost about ten grand more than a regular car, you could give
a two-grand-a-year tax credit for five years to encourage folks to buy them.

Hybrids got a boost because of the need to make smarter batteries for
cellphones and laptops, but we could use even more improvement.

I can see no problem of having or borrowing a hybrid for use in
Manhattan only and a regular car out of Manhattan.
A lot of people have junky "station cars" they leeve at the train station.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-10 05:42:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Hybrids could be ideal for the stop-and-go traffic of Manhattan.
I would have no problem if they gave them a break on congestion pricing.
Since hybrids cost about ten grand more than a regular car, you could give
a two-grand-a-year tax credit for five years to encourage folks to buy them.
The brilliant bushie solution of "tax credits." "Tax credits" only
work for those rich enough to have to pay taxes beyond the ordinary
withholding amounts.
jdoe
2007-06-10 13:27:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:42:43 -0700, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Hybrids could be ideal for the stop-and-go traffic of Manhattan.
I would have no problem if they gave them a break on congestion pricing.
Since hybrids cost about ten grand more than a regular car, you could give
a two-grand-a-year tax credit for five years to encourage folks to buy them.
The brilliant bushie solution of "tax credits." "Tax credits" only
work for those rich enough to have to pay taxes beyond the ordinary
withholding amounts.
giving tax credits to low income people who don't pay income taxes
anyway makes no sense,
stick to little kids petey

v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:35:19 UTC
Permalink
The problem with mandates is where the cost comes out isn't always
predictable. I used to go to the Javits and other conventions with a dial
car. Then they mandated so much equipment on those cabs, they trippled the
fare, so I go by car. I also used to courier my convention junk home when I
had to stay in town longer until the hyperactive make-work security nuts made
it too much of a hassle. Everything has a cost and we just keep mindlessly
adding them.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
jdoe
2007-06-09 19:40:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:18:49 -0700, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by George Conklin
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
liberal will have no problems.
What the fuck is a "limousine liberal,"
wow, using profanity is an excuse for not having verbal dexterity,
surprising for a guy who claims to be linguistic guy extraordinaire
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Limousines these days are used by high school kids and CEOs.
albeit very well to do one, you don't see too many kids in the 'hood
getting in their limo to get to school
Post by Peter T. Daniels
And they are hardly a significant traffic problem in NYC.
private cars in midtown are not much of an issue, the bulk of the
traffic is from commercial vehicles, trucks, delivery vans, taxis and
black cars.

maybe you're verbal expression problems can be traced to the fact that
you're guilty about being caught trolling movie theaters for kids, did
you ever register?
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 02:51:23 UTC
Permalink
*+-It is a vendetta on automobiles ONLY for the average person. The limousine
*+-liberal will have no problems.

Interesting point. Now I stopped using car services (which I used heavily in
the 1990s) when all the new equipment trippled the rates. Since I was
self-employed, I knew what the tolls cost, they were separate.

Are you going to tell me the bean counters will not eventually notice these
things? The question here is what will their response be? Cut down on car
use? Move these people out of town.

Bloomberg's company has office in Princeton and at WFC/ML, for which they
have shuttle busses. In his case, will not such policy encourage his employes
to move closer to Princeton and take the shuttle busses to their Manhattan
offices? Eventually will Bloomberg not decide it's too costly to keep moving
people into the congestion pricing zone and permanently move them out of
Madhutden?

After 9/11 a lot of jobs moved out of town, NJ, Queens, Great Neck, Brooklyn.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
John Mara
2007-06-09 16:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles. And
it is the kind of thinking that puts this mayor on the same trash heap of
history as Jimmy Carter and the metric system. It cuts too wide a swath to
be legitimate congestion pricing. LIRR peak/off is congestion pricing, and
if you are fair, it should apply to transit fares as well to encourage
employers to stagger work hours so there is less congestion. Why are you
building new convention centers if you penalise people for going to them?
They will become abandoned ruins commemorating the silliness of urban
verminage. I wonder how, if he has not been able to get the much simpler
plan of equalising bridge and tunnel tolls, how he will succeed in this. I
know plenty of people who drive an extra fifteen minutes to avoid tolls.
Congestion pricing will eliminate avoiding tolls. Drivers will pay a
total of eight bucks no matter which bridge or tunnel they use.
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
A major fraction of the traffic is caused by folks whose original or final
destination is NOT Manhattan. A crosstown highway or tunnel linking the two
midtown under-river tunnels seems imperative. If we can build one more Hudson
tunnel, then we can build one under land, given the new tunneling machines
available.
Congestion pricing will encourage people to use the Verrazano Bridge
instead of driving though Manhattan.

--
John Mara
George Conklin
2007-06-09 17:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Mara
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Congestion pricing is a misnomer. This is a vendetta on automobiles.
And
Post by John Mara
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
it is the kind of thinking that puts this mayor on the same trash heap of
history as Jimmy Carter and the metric system. It cuts too wide a swath to
be legitimate congestion pricing. LIRR peak/off is congestion pricing, and
if you are fair, it should apply to transit fares as well to encourage
employers to stagger work hours so there is less congestion. Why
are you
Post by John Mara
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
building new convention centers if you penalise people for going to them?
They will become abandoned ruins commemorating the silliness of
urban
Post by John Mara
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
verminage. I wonder how, if he has not been able to get the much simpler
plan of equalising bridge and tunnel tolls, how he will succeed in this. I
know plenty of people who drive an extra fifteen minutes to avoid tolls.
Congestion pricing will eliminate avoiding tolls. Drivers will pay a
total of eight bucks no matter which bridge or tunnel they use.
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
A major fraction of the traffic is caused by folks whose original or final
destination is NOT Manhattan. A crosstown highway or tunnel linking the two
midtown under-river tunnels seems imperative. If we can build one more Hudson
tunnel, then we can build one under land, given the new tunneling machines
available.
Congestion pricing will encourage people to use the Verrazano Bridge
instead of driving though Manhattan.
--
John Mara
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Steven M. O'Neill
2007-06-09 18:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)

Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.

And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
--
Steven O'Neill ***@panix.com
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
c***@gmail.com
2007-06-09 19:07:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
And what will it do to the truck traffic? ISTM that's a greater
problem than individuals driving into Manhattan, especially when they
double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
between 7AM and 7PM?

Chris
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
--
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 20:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
And what will it do to the truck traffic? ISTM that's a greater
problem than individuals driving into Manhattan, especially when they
double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
between 7AM and 7PM?
Trucking is a justifications for congestion charging that isn't really
talked about. So if this works and helps trucking, it would be great.

Trucking is time-sensitive and idling a truck in traffic is the height
of fuel inefficiency. If they can make deliveries faster and waste less
fuel in the process, it would save trucking companies money. They could
in turn pass the savings onto consumers and manufacturers alike.
George Conklin
2007-06-09 21:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
And what will it do to the truck traffic? ISTM that's a greater
problem than individuals driving into Manhattan, especially when they
double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
between 7AM and 7PM?
Trucking is a justifications for congestion charging that isn't really
talked about. So if this works and helps trucking, it would be great.
Trucking is time-sensitive and idling a truck in traffic is the height
of fuel inefficiency. If they can make deliveries faster and waste less
fuel in the process, it would save trucking companies money. They could
in turn pass the savings onto consumers and manufacturers alike.
Trucks are being asked to pay a much heavier congestion charge. The obvious
goal is to get trucks to come in at night and on weekends. Manufacturing in
Manhattan these days hardly exists compared to the past.
Bolwerk
2007-06-09 22:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
And what will it do to the truck traffic? ISTM that's a greater
problem than individuals driving into Manhattan, especially when they
double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
between 7AM and 7PM?
Trucking is a justifications for congestion charging that isn't really
talked about. So if this works and helps trucking, it would be great.
Trucking is time-sensitive and idling a truck in traffic is the height
of fuel inefficiency. If they can make deliveries faster and waste less
fuel in the process, it would save trucking companies money. They could
in turn pass the savings onto consumers and manufacturers alike.
Trucks are being asked to pay a much heavier congestion charge. The obvious
goal is to get trucks to come in at night and on weekends. Manufacturing in
Manhattan these days hardly exists compared to the past.
I'd actually be all for going easier on trucks, and harder on private
automobile users. Deliveries are essential.
Sancho Panza
2007-06-09 23:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
And what will it do to the truck traffic? ISTM that's a greater
problem than individuals driving into Manhattan, especially when they
double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
between 7AM and 7PM?
Trucking is a justifications for congestion charging that isn't really
talked about. So if this works and helps trucking, it would be great.
Trucking is time-sensitive and idling a truck in traffic is the height
of fuel inefficiency. If they can make deliveries faster and waste less
fuel in the process, it would save trucking companies money. They could
in turn pass the savings onto consumers and manufacturers alike.
Trucks are being asked to pay a much heavier congestion charge. The obvious
goal is to get trucks to come in at night and on weekends. Manufacturing in
Manhattan these days hardly exists compared to the past.
I'd actually be all for going easier on trucks, and harder on private
automobile users. Deliveries are essential.
The burning question at Fairway (and Whole Foods and Trader Joe's) is how
many truckloads a day of arugula they need.
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 00:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sancho Panza
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
And what will it do to the truck traffic? ISTM that's a greater
problem than individuals driving into Manhattan, especially when they
double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
between 7AM and 7PM?
Trucking is a justifications for congestion charging that isn't really
talked about. So if this works and helps trucking, it would be great.
Trucking is time-sensitive and idling a truck in traffic is the height
of fuel inefficiency. If they can make deliveries faster and waste less
fuel in the process, it would save trucking companies money. They could
in turn pass the savings onto consumers and manufacturers alike.
Trucks are being asked to pay a much heavier congestion charge. The obvious
goal is to get trucks to come in at night and on weekends. Manufacturing in
Manhattan these days hardly exists compared to the past.
I'd actually be all for going easier on trucks, and harder on private
automobile users. Deliveries are essential.
The burning question at Fairway (and Whole Foods and Trader Joe's) is how
many truckloads a day of arugula they need.
Probably a fraction of one. Let the market decide?
George Conklin
2007-06-10 00:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
And what will it do to the truck traffic? ISTM that's a greater
problem than individuals driving into Manhattan, especially when they
double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
between 7AM and 7PM?
Trucking is a justifications for congestion charging that isn't really
talked about. So if this works and helps trucking, it would be great.
Trucking is time-sensitive and idling a truck in traffic is the height
of fuel inefficiency. If they can make deliveries faster and waste less
fuel in the process, it would save trucking companies money. They could
in turn pass the savings onto consumers and manufacturers alike.
Trucks are being asked to pay a much heavier congestion charge. The obvious
goal is to get trucks to come in at night and on weekends.
Manufacturing in
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Manhattan these days hardly exists compared to the past.
I'd actually be all for going easier on trucks, and harder on private
automobile users. Deliveries are essential.
But people are not?
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 00:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping
there.
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
And what will it do to the truck traffic? ISTM that's a greater
problem than individuals driving into Manhattan, especially when they
double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
between 7AM and 7PM?
Trucking is a justifications for congestion charging that isn't really
talked about. So if this works and helps trucking, it would be great.
Trucking is time-sensitive and idling a truck in traffic is the height
of fuel inefficiency. If they can make deliveries faster and waste
less
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
fuel in the process, it would save trucking companies money. They
could
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Post by Bolwerk
in turn pass the savings onto consumers and manufacturers alike.
Trucks are being asked to pay a much heavier congestion charge. The
obvious
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
goal is to get trucks to come in at night and on weekends.
Manufacturing in
Post by Bolwerk
Post by George Conklin
Manhattan these days hardly exists compared to the past.
I'd actually be all for going easier on trucks, and harder on private
automobile users. Deliveries are essential.
But people are not?
Is there something wrong with your reading comprehension? Did I say
they are not?

People can take subways, buses, and myriad other forms of transportation
to and from Manhattan.

And, maybe this will surprise you, but people kind of sort of depend on
having food and other goods delivered to them.
A***@hotmail.com
2007-06-10 00:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Trucks are being asked to pay a much heavier congestion charge. The obvious
goal is to get trucks to come in at night and on weekends. Manufacturing in
Manhattan these days hardly exists compared to the past.
Some of the last factories in Manhattan were garment factories in
Chinatown. But many of them went out of business just after September
11th because of new traffic restrictions that made it impossible for
trucks to get there. Congestion wasn't really an issue, but
government interference was.

Of course, most trucks in Manhattan are making deliveries and service
calls, not picking up finished goods from factories.

-Apr
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 00:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Trucks are being asked to pay a much heavier congestion charge. The obvious
goal is to get trucks to come in at night and on weekends. Manufacturing in
Manhattan these days hardly exists compared to the past.
Some of the last factories in Manhattan were garment factories in
Chinatown. But many of them went out of business just after September
11th because of new traffic restrictions that made it impossible for
trucks to get there. Congestion wasn't really an issue, but
government interference was.
Of course, most trucks in Manhattan are making deliveries and service
calls, not picking up finished goods from factories.
A few years ago, the NY Times had an article saying there were something
like 3000 light manufacturing operations left in Manhattan.
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:40:34 UTC
Permalink
*+-A few years ago, the NY Times had an article saying there were something
*+-like 3000 light manufacturing operations left in Manhattan.

Before WW2 half of all SIC codes were represented in NYC.

To be fair, it was Rocky who thought all that was beneath us being "Great"

Now, when Wall Street disappears through the ethernet, what will be left?

The irony is 9/11 accelerated a lot of automation as a security concern.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 04:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
*+-A few years ago, the NY Times had an article saying there were something
*+-like 3000 light manufacturing operations left in Manhattan.
Before WW2 half of all SIC codes were represented in NYC.
Industrial classifications? I'm surprised it wasn't more.
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
To be fair, it was Rocky who thought all that was beneath us being "Great"
Yeah, well, Rocky apparently thought downtown would be saved if we
knocked down people's homes and built two incredibly bigbox boner
monstrosities.
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
Now, when Wall Street disappears through the ethernet, what will be left?
I doubt Wall Street will entirely disappear through the ethernet. Firms
like to be nearby each other, and high finance has been in Manhattan
rubbing shoulders with law and industry for a long time. It'll be a
long time before it's gone, barring a disaster.

I do sometimes wonder why the city doesn't make more of an effort to
bring financial firms to other parts of the city, like downtown
Brooklyn. Or, I guess, it's rather surprising more financial firms
don't flow out of downtown to other parts of the city. Could the
prestige factor be that strong?
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
The irony is 9/11 accelerated a lot of automation as a security concern.
The Times had an article today about northeastern Pennsylvania trying to
become "Wall Street West."
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-10 05:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Yeah, well, Rocky apparently thought downtown would be saved if we
knocked down people's homes and built two incredibly bigbox boner
monstrosities.
No, it was the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel that displaced residential
neighborhoods. Well before Rockefeller.
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 06:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bolwerk
Yeah, well, Rocky apparently thought downtown would be saved if we
knocked down people's homes and built two incredibly bigbox boner
monstrosities.
No, it was the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel that displaced residential
neighborhoods. Well before Rockefeller.
That didn't help either. At least they didn't build the bridge.
George Conklin
2007-06-10 11:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Trucks are being asked to pay a much heavier congestion charge. The obvious
goal is to get trucks to come in at night and on weekends.
Manufacturing in
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by George Conklin
Manhattan these days hardly exists compared to the past.
Some of the last factories in Manhattan were garment factories in
Chinatown. But many of them went out of business just after September
11th because of new traffic restrictions that made it impossible for
trucks to get there. Congestion wasn't really an issue, but
government interference was.
Of course, most trucks in Manhattan are making deliveries and service
calls, not picking up finished goods from factories.
-Apr
Costs are a major problem in NYC for any manufacturing operation.
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:23:58 UTC
Permalink
When I need to go to the Javits from Queens,
trucks slow us down the most in the cross-town leg.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:20:19 UTC
Permalink
I don't see why trucks should have free reign. Trucks are the worst
double-parkers as the driver doesn't have to pay out of pocket, and passes it
on to the boss/customers as the extorted cost of "doing business." I've seen
some "wide load" oddities (entire house once) come down 57th late at night
while waiting for the express bus, so I suspect there is some reason for
trucks to travel off-hours. I'm not sure trucks don't adopt to off-peak
incentives. If it has to be there overnight, then deliver it at 5am. I prefer
my mail when I go in in the morning or after lunch - most other times it is a
distraction.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
Bolwerk
2007-06-10 04:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
I don't see why trucks should have free reign. Trucks are the worst
double-parkers as the driver doesn't have to pay out of pocket, and passes it
on to the boss/customers as the extorted cost of "doing business." I've seen
some "wide load" oddities (entire house once) come down 57th late at night
while waiting for the express bus, so I suspect there is some reason for
trucks to travel off-hours. I'm not sure trucks don't adopt to off-peak
incentives. If it has to be there overnight, then deliver it at 5am. I prefer
my mail when I go in in the morning or after lunch - most other times it is a
distraction.
If you're responding to me, I don't think they should have free reign.
However, I also think it's a risky proposition to make it even more
expensive for them to make deliveries. By and large, cars from out of
town don't provide a useful service to the people of this city. Trucks
delivering goods simply do.

And believe me, I'm not happy about the behavior of some truckers.
What's the alternative though? JIT light rail freight filled with
R2D2-style container bots wobbling goods directly to stores from
delivery vehicles?
Clark F Morris
2007-06-10 11:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bolwerk
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
I don't see why trucks should have free reign. Trucks are the worst
double-parkers as the driver doesn't have to pay out of pocket, and passes it
on to the boss/customers as the extorted cost of "doing business." I've seen
some "wide load" oddities (entire house once) come down 57th late at night
while waiting for the express bus, so I suspect there is some reason for
trucks to travel off-hours. I'm not sure trucks don't adopt to off-peak
incentives. If it has to be there overnight, then deliver it at 5am. I prefer
my mail when I go in in the morning or after lunch - most other times it is a
distraction.
If you're responding to me, I don't think they should have free reign.
However, I also think it's a risky proposition to make it even more
expensive for them to make deliveries. By and large, cars from out of
town don't provide a useful service to the people of this city. Trucks
delivering goods simply do.
And believe me, I'm not happy about the behavior of some truckers.
What's the alternative though? JIT light rail freight filled with
R2D2-style container bots wobbling goods directly to stores from
delivery vehicles?
Zurich now has garbage collection trams and Amsterdam is experimenting
with cargo trams. I would assume manual loading and unloading.
Peter T. Daniels
2007-06-10 05:47:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
I don't see why trucks should have free reign. Trucks are the worst
double-parkers as the driver doesn't have to pay out of pocket, and passes it
on to the boss/customers as the extorted cost of "doing business." I've seen
some "wide load" oddities (entire house once) come down 57th late at night
while waiting for the express bus,
Then it can't have been "late at night" -- they stop before midnight.
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
so I suspect there is some reason for
trucks to travel off-hours.
Try reading the signs on the GWB.
Post by v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
I'm not sure trucks don't adopt to off-peak
incentives. If it has to be there overnight, then deliver it at 5am. I prefer
my mail when I go in in the morning or after lunch - most other times it is a
distraction.
George Conklin
2007-06-09 20:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
And what will it do to the truck traffic? ISTM that's a greater
problem than individuals driving into Manhattan, especially when they
double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
between 7AM and 7PM?
Chris
I think trucks will pay an even higher congestion charge. I wonder if
all business will shift to nightime delivery.
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:09:08 UTC
Permalink
*+-double-park. Ever tried to go crosstown on 33rd street anytime
*+-between 7AM and 7PM?

(no-turn, purple-signed) Thru-streets help a lot. But not always.

You saw the thank you Giuliani got for that, right? They dressed up as cattle.

The express busses unofficially avoid using 34th to go crosstown in
the afternoons.


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
George Conklin
2007-06-09 20:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven M. O'Neill
Post by George Conklin
Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.
Only 6% of shopping trips in Manhattan involve the use of a car.
(http://www.transalt.org/press/releases/060223necessity_choice.html)
Congestion charging is expected to reduce the number of car
trips during the charging hours by about 7-8%. Let's say 8. 8%
of 6% is less than half of a percent.
And this doesn't even take into account shopping trips made
after 6pm or on weekends.
I can't imagine having anything of any size shipped to your house, as in
the old days. You would have to be home awaiting delivery like my mother
used to be, or she had it sent to NJ to her father's house. Going shopping
daily for food was a pain in the neck, but necessary. Shop till you drop is
no damn fun.
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2007-06-10 03:03:27 UTC
Permalink
*+- Yes, avoid the city as much as possible, especially shopping there.

Or coming to conventions. It's the whole Lindsey Dinkins attitude.

People have to walk around with bowls of crap on their heads as a
price for the privilege of coming to Knudknick Schitty.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for Bimbos]
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