Discussion:
Design: Pedestrians, bikes, etc.
(too old to reply)
Pat
2008-09-05 18:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Here's an interesting article. A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc. But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks). In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.

http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
Amy Blankenship
2008-09-05 19:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Here's an interesting article. A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc. But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks). In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
I guess that explains why so many strip malls are laid out to make walking
unlikely. And people laugh at me when I say we need to stop building in
such a way that we force additional gas consumption. I guess when gas
prices get so high people won't be able to afford to drive around the mall
and shop too, things will change.
Jack May
2008-09-05 23:06:35 UTC
Permalink
I guess when gas prices get so high people won't be able to afford to drive
around the mall and shop too, things will change.
Men drive to one store when they want to buy something. They seldom go
from store to store shopping. Men tend to hate shopping.

Women go to large shopping malls more so that they can walk around and shop
at narrow stores. Women of course also shop at strip malls, but I have not
seen many women driving from store to store.

You appear to just be fabricating a lie to justify those deadly diesel
busses that degrade the health and life span of so many people.

Sort of like your other childish nonsense about gasoline prices. Every car
company is developing hybrid cars for alternative fuels and lots of money is
going into the development so that rich people can grab a big chunk of the
six trillion dollar per year market for fuel. The price of hybrid fuels is
expected be far less than gasoline.
Amy Blankenship
2008-09-06 03:54:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
I guess when gas prices get so high people won't be able to afford to
drive around the mall and shop too, things will change.
Men drive to one store when they want to buy something. They seldom go
from store to store shopping. Men tend to hate shopping.
Women go to large shopping malls more so that they can walk around and
shop at narrow stores. Women of course also shop at strip malls, but I
have not seen many women driving from store to store.
You appear to just be fabricating a lie to justify those deadly diesel
busses that degrade the health and life span of so many people.
I invite you to come to our local strip mall and try to get from Barnes and
Noble to PetSmart without driving, and see how much I'm lying. This sort of
strip mall is repeated thousands of times across the USA.

There's a picture of one on the cover of this book
http://www.bigboxswindle.com/. It's not the one in my town, but the stores
and structure are recognizably the same.
Post by Jack May
Sort of like your other childish nonsense about gasoline prices. Every
car company is developing hybrid cars for alternative fuels and lots of
money is going into the development so that rich people can grab a big
chunk of the six trillion dollar per year market for fuel. The price of
hybrid fuels is expected be far less than gasoline.
I'm really curious, Jack. Why are you so terrified that people might be
able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
Jack May
2008-09-06 04:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Blankenship
I'm really curious, Jack. Why are you so terrified that people might be
able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
I am not terrified, its just a far less desirable life pushed by people with
the Technology Laggard mental condition. I have a lot of experience with
people that are mentally screwed up with this condition in multiple
technology areas.

They all act the same way. They lie a lot and have great difficulty dealing
with reality. They are not fun and I prefer to avoid these troubled people.
All that can be done is to correct them in the futile hope that they can
ever become rational in normal society.
Amy Blankenship
2008-09-06 13:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
Post by Amy Blankenship
I'm really curious, Jack. Why are you so terrified that people might be
able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
I am not terrified, its just a far less desirable life pushed by people
with the Technology Laggard mental condition. I have a lot of experience
with people that are mentally screwed up with this condition in multiple
technology areas.
How is it less desirable to want to spend less of your time and money
driving from store to store? Please explain.
Pat
2008-09-06 19:20:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 6, 9:37 am, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
I'm really curious, Jack.  Why are you so terrified that people might be
able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
I am not terrified, its just a far less desirable life pushed by people
with the Technology Laggard mental condition.  I have a lot of experience
with people that are mentally screwed up with this condition in multiple
technology areas.
How is it less desirable to want to spend less of your time and money
driving from store to store?  Please explain.
For both of you, you have to realize that there are different strokes
for different folks. You can't impose your views or priorities on
other and there is no, single right answer. The best you can do is
make alternatives economically feasible.

Look at all of the wonderful things technology has brought. Air
travel to go see the grandkids/parents. Fresh fruit all winter.
Refrigeration and A/C. Who would want to live without it. Well, the
Amish for example. They would. Your arguments are completely lost on
them. Okay, granted, the Amish are not the most mainstream group
you'll find, but they are a wonder example of the fact that different
folks like different things.

Driving. I'm okay with it. I can think, listen to books, and talk on
the phone. It's not bid deal. But it's given me the ability to live
in a small down in the middle of nowhere. I can work out of my house,
have time for the kids, etc. From my perspective, I think both of you
are whooped. But again, maybe I'm not the most mainstream guy,
either.

So Amy likes walkable communities. Good for her. Jack recognized
that most people don't give a d**n about planning -- they just want to
live their lives, work their jobs, eat their TV dinners, and watch
American Idol. Good for Jack and good for them.

People will make their decisions based on their likes, dislikes, and
economics. So the more option we have available, the better.
Everyone is out making good choices, from their own perspective.
Amy Blankenship
2008-09-07 00:12:09 UTC
Permalink
"Pat" <***@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message news:9f01ba28-562f-41c8-b30c-***@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 6, 9:37 am, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
I'm really curious, Jack. Why are you so terrified that people might be
able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
I am not terrified, its just a far less desirable life pushed by people
with the Technology Laggard mental condition. I have a lot of experience
with people that are mentally screwed up with this condition in multiple
technology areas.
How is it less desirable to want to spend less of your time and money
driving from store to store? Please explain.
For both of you, you have to realize that there are different strokes
for different folks. You can't impose your views or priorities on
other and there is no, single right answer. The best you can do is
make alternatives economically feasible.

Look at all of the wonderful things technology has brought. Air
travel to go see the grandkids/parents. Fresh fruit all winter.
Refrigeration and A/C. Who would want to live without it. Well, the
Amish for example. They would. Your arguments are completely lost on
them. Okay, granted, the Amish are not the most mainstream group
you'll find, but they are a wonder example of the fact that different
folks like different things.

Driving. I'm okay with it. I can think, listen to books, and talk on
the phone. It's not bid deal. But it's given me the ability to live
in a small down in the middle of nowhere. I can work out of my house,
have time for the kids, etc. From my perspective, I think both of you
are whooped. But again, maybe I'm not the most mainstream guy,
either.

So Amy likes walkable communities. Good for her. Jack recognized
that most people don't give a d**n about planning -- they just want to
live their lives, work their jobs, eat their TV dinners, and watch
American Idol. Good for Jack and good for them.

People will make their decisions based on their likes, dislikes, and
economics. So the more option we have available, the better.
Everyone is out making good choices, from their own perspective.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Except that some choices preserve the environment for future generations in
better shape than others, and by the way, help the current generation
maintain its shape better than others. I guess if you don't give a flying
flip about current health or future environmental quality, yes, all choices
are great.
Pat
2008-09-07 12:52:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 6, 8:12 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
On Sep 6, 9:37 am, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
I'm really curious, Jack. Why are you so terrified that people might be
able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
I am not terrified, its just a far less desirable life pushed by people
with the Technology Laggard mental condition. I have a lot of experience
with people that are mentally screwed up with this condition in multiple
technology areas.
How is it less desirable to want to spend less of your time and money
driving from store to store? Please explain.
For both of you, you have to realize that there are different strokes
for different folks.  You can't impose your views or priorities on
other and there is no, single right answer.  The best you can do is
make alternatives economically feasible.
Look at all of the wonderful things technology has brought.  Air
travel to go see the grandkids/parents.  Fresh fruit all winter.
Refrigeration and A/C.  Who would want to live without it.  Well, the
Amish for example.  They would.  Your arguments are completely lost on
them.  Okay, granted, the Amish are not the most mainstream group
you'll find, but they are a wonder example of the fact that different
folks like different things.
Driving.  I'm okay with it.  I can think, listen to books, and talk on
the phone.  It's not bid deal.  But it's given me the ability to live
in a small down in the middle of nowhere.  I can work out of my house,
have time for the kids, etc.  From my perspective, I think both of you
are whooped.  But again, maybe I'm not the most mainstream guy,
either.
So Amy likes walkable communities.  Good for her.  Jack recognized
that most people don't give a d**n about planning -- they just want to
live their lives, work their jobs, eat their TV dinners, and watch
American Idol.  Good for Jack and good for them.
People will make their decisions based on their likes, dislikes, and
economics.  So the more option we have available, the better.
Everyone is out making good choices, from their own perspective.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Except that some choices preserve the environment for future generations in
better shape than others, and by the way, help the current generation
maintain its shape better than others.  I guess if you don't give a flying
flip about current health or future environmental quality, yes, all choices
are great.
Actually, I think there should be basic limits on stuff for
environmental protection, but you can't protect everyone from
everything without creating a whole nuther set of problems.

As for health, no, I don't care about yours. It is up to YOU to
ensure that YOU get enough exercise -- it's not up to me. I'll keep
my nose out of your business. Your choice of potato chips or carrots
is entirely up to you.
Warm Worm
2008-09-13 20:30:46 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 6, 8:12 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
On Sep 6, 9:37 am, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
I'm really curious, Jack. Why are you so terrified that people might be
able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
I am not terrified, its just a far less desirable life pushed by people
with the Technology Laggard mental condition. I have a lot of experience
with people that are mentally screwed up with this condition in multiple
technology areas.
How is it less desirable to want to spend less of your time and money
driving from store to store? Please explain.
For both of you, you have to realize that there are different strokes
for different folks. You can't impose your views or priorities on
other and there is no, single right answer. The best you can do is
make alternatives economically feasible.
...While maybe trying to convince some folks that some strokes make
environmental and/or ecologic/'nomic sense before they go off the cliff
of their making and drag everyone else down with them.
Post by Amy Blankenship
Look at all of the wonderful things technology has brought. Air
travel to go see the grandkids/parents. Fresh fruit all winter.
Pollution, excess time, costs & labor.
Post by Amy Blankenship
Refrigeration and A/C. Who would want to live without it. Well, the
Amish for example. They would. Your arguments are completely lost on
them. Okay, granted, the Amish are not the most mainstream group
you'll find, but they are a wonder example of the fact that different
folks like different things.
Driving. I'm okay with it. I can think, listen to books, and talk on
the phone. It's not bid deal. But it's given me the ability to live
in a small down in the middle of nowhere. I can work out of my house,
have time for the kids, etc. From my perspective, I think both of you
are whooped. But again, maybe I'm not the most mainstream guy,
either.
So Amy likes walkable communities. Good for her. Jack recognized
that most people don't give a d**n about planning -- they just want to
live their lives, work their jobs, eat their TV dinners, and watch
American Idol. Good for Jack and good for them.
People will make their decisions based on their likes, dislikes, and
economics. So the more option we have available, the better.
Everyone is out making good choices, from their own perspective.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Except that some choices preserve the environment for future generations in
better shape than others, and by the way, help the current generation
maintain its shape better than others. I guess if you don't give a flying
flip about current health or future environmental quality, yes, all choices
are great.
Actually, I think there should be basic limits on stuff for
environmental protection, but you can't protect everyone from
everything without creating a whole nuther set of problems.
As for health, no, I don't care about yours. It is up to YOU to
ensure that YOU get enough exercise -- it's not up to me. I'll keep
my nose out of your business. Your choice of potato chips or carrots
is entirely up to you.
'Whole nuther'? 'I'll keep my nose out of your business.'?
This reads like the late Don. Maybe even the words in caps, too. ;)

At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_
they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
george conklin
2008-09-14 03:56:53 UTC
Permalink
"Warm Worm" <***@domain.invalid> wrote in message news:gah7r8$4h9$***@aioe.org...

)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_ they
get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing locally...
Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like Amish
technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving food
long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
Warm Worm
2008-09-14 20:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_ they
get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing locally...
Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like Amish
technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving food
long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.

I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such
as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.

Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating
plastic garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.

The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.

It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire
to live truly happily.
george conklin
2008-09-14 23:53:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_
they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving food
long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such as,
for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire to
live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Pat
2008-09-15 00:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Warm Worm
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_
they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
   It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition.  Moving food
long distances was a good bit of the drop.  Local?  That equates with
famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such as,
for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire to
live truly happily.
    Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed.  So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution.  Sorry you don't think so.  And
transporting food long distances was essential too.  Bad diets = early
death.
Many of the first real factories needed water, but not necessarily
potable water. For the first factories, water was a form of energy.
george conklin
2008-09-15 10:56:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_
they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food
long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such as,
for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire to
live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Many of the first real factories needed water, but not necessarily
potable water. For the first factories, water was a form of energy.

---

So? In building large-scale water works for industry, the whole water
supply was cleaned up. Malaria, for example, declined sharply when farmers
drained swamps for the fertile soil under the water. That was not an
intended consequence either.
Pat
2008-09-15 14:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_
they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food
long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such as,
for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire to
live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Many of the first real factories needed water, but not necessarily
potable water.  For the first factories, water was a form of energy.
---
    So?  In building large-scale water works for industry, the whole water
supply was cleaned up.  Malaria, for example, declined sharply when farmers
drained swamps for the fertile soil under the water.  That was not an
intended consequence either.
I grew up in an early industrial town. The factory water system for
the mills was completely different than the potable water system.
Water quality was not so much of an issue as quantity for the mills.
They basically created artificial streams that led under the
factories. But to do so, they flooded lots of land for their
reservoirs. Interestingly enough, it had no impact on Malaria where I
grew up. Malaria isn't much of a problem north of the Mason-Dixon.
Amy Blankenship
2008-09-15 14:45:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_
they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food
long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such as,
for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire to
live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Many of the first real factories needed water, but not necessarily
potable water. For the first factories, water was a form of energy.
---
So? In building large-scale water works for industry, the whole water
supply was cleaned up. Malaria, for example, declined sharply when
farmers drained swamps for the fertile soil under the water. That was not
an intended consequence either.
Nor was the increased vulnerability of hurricane-prone areas to storms due
to loss of wetlands...
Pat
2008-09-15 15:48:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 15, 10:45 am, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Pat
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_
they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food
long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such as,
for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire to
live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Many of the first real factories needed water, but not necessarily
potable water.  For the first factories, water was a form of energy.
---
   So?  In building large-scale water works for industry, the whole water
supply was cleaned up.  Malaria, for example, declined sharply when
farmers drained swamps for the fertile soil under the water.  That was not
an intended consequence either.
Nor was the increased vulnerability of hurricane-prone areas to storms due
to loss of wetlands...
Generally, factories built during the industrial revolution (and prior
thereto) that relied on water power were built on hillsides. They
created the small towns and industrial cities of the North-east.

Many of these cities were built in rural areas that had a waterfall.
The water supplies were quite pristine but reservoirs had to be built.

Hurricanes really weren't an issue (but an occasional nor'easter might
be). Speaking of hurricanes, Ike blew by last night. My son got his
first "snow day" of the season because the school didn't have any
power.
Amy Blankenship
2008-09-15 16:49:55 UTC
Permalink
"Pat" <***@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message news:fc1db397-ff07-445e-813e-***@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 15, 10:45 am, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Pat
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_
they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food
long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such
as,
for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire
to
live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Many of the first real factories needed water, but not necessarily
potable water. For the first factories, water was a form of energy.
---
So? In building large-scale water works for industry, the whole water
supply was cleaned up. Malaria, for example, declined sharply when
farmers drained swamps for the fertile soil under the water. That was
not
an intended consequence either.
Nor was the increased vulnerability of hurricane-prone areas to storms due
to loss of wetlands...
Generally, factories built during the industrial revolution (and prior
thereto) that relied on water power were built on hillsides. They
created the small towns and industrial cities of the North-east.

Many of these cities were built in rural areas that had a waterfall.
The water supplies were quite pristine but reservoirs had to be built.

Hurricanes really weren't an issue (but an occasional nor'easter might
be). Speaking of hurricanes, Ike blew by last night. My son got his
first "snow day" of the season because the school didn't have any
power.

----------------------------------------------------------
I know Boston was built on a drained swamp, but I had a vague impression
there aren't actually a whole lot of malaria-infested swamps in the
Northeast. I sort of assumed readers would be able to infer from that that
my point wasn't directed at the Northeast, even if it weren't for the
obvious fact, which you helpfully pointed out, that it's very rare for a
hurricane to hit there. I wasn't addressing your comments about the water
supply to factories, but George's comments about drained swamps, which were
only tangentially related.

Hope this helps you follow more easily;

Amy
Warm Worm
2008-09-16 06:41:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM,
irradiated, etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk
about _how_ they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about
growing locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of
like Amish technology)
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the
death rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition.
Moving food long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That
equates with famine.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I
see a lot of questionable applications.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates,
such as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement
or inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the
inherent effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if
it ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating
plastic garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and
desire to live truly happily.
Post by george conklin
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so.

Sorry you don't think I don't think so. ;)

Seriously though, plumbing seems fine on the surface, but my point was
in part about contexts and consequences.
As a metaphor; you can sweep dirt under the rug in some kind of
newfangled technological way and impress everybody about your "low dirt
rates", but of course the dirt is still there, and piling up.
Post by george conklin
And transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets =
early death.

I just wrote that if I'm not living, I'd rather be dead. Living to me
includes a healthy and vital ecosystem. Life to me is also not about a
good diet in exchange for wage slavery, either.

BTW, swamp-/marshland is good for ducks, frogs, arthropods, birds, and
all kinds of other creatures-- including us. Apparently, draining it
used to be all the rage.
Re-routing/-configuring/-locating water, food, land, etc., can have all
kinds of unintended consequences... which reminds me of the
documentaries, 'Darwin's Nightmare', 'Salton Sea' and the very
recently-viewed, 'Manufactured Landscapes':



Especially on-topic on alt.planning.urban, and perhaps this is a bit of
the dirt under the rug peeking through.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM, irradiated,
etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about _how_
they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving food
long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such as,
for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire to
live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
george conklin
2008-09-16 11:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM,
irradiated, etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about
_how_ they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the
death rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I
see a lot of questionable applications.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates,
such as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if
it ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and
desire to live truly happily.
Post by george conklin
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so.
Sorry you don't think I don't think so. ;)
Seriously though, plumbing seems fine on the surface, but my point was in
part about contexts and consequences.
As a metaphor; you can sweep dirt under the rug in some kind of newfangled
technological way and impress everybody about your "low dirt rates", but
of course the dirt is still there, and piling up.
Post by george conklin
And transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets =
early death.
I just wrote that if I'm not living, I'd rather be dead. Living to me
includes a healthy and vital ecosystem. Life to me is also not about a
good diet in exchange for wage slavery, either.
In the modern world, at least you are alive to complain all the time. In
past generations, you would already be dead and not worried about
ecosystems. And diets were horrid in the past.
BTW, swamp-/marshland is good for ducks, frogs, arthropods, birds, and all
kinds of other creatures-- including us. Apparently, draining it used to
be all the rage.
Yes, because malarial swamps killed millions of people every year. The
unintended consequence of draining them was a vastly lower death rate and
better food too.
Pat
2008-09-16 13:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Warm Worm
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM,
irradiated, etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about
_how_ they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
Post by Warm Worm
   It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the
death rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food long distances was a good bit of the drop.  Local?  That equates with
famine.
Post by Warm Worm
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I
see a lot of questionable applications.
Post by Warm Worm
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates,
such as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
Post by Warm Worm
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if
it ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
Post by Warm Worm
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
Post by Warm Worm
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and
desire to live truly happily.
    Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed.  So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution.  Sorry you don't think so.
Sorry you don't think I don't think so. ;)
Seriously though, plumbing seems fine on the surface, but my point was in
part about contexts and consequences.
As a metaphor; you can sweep dirt under the rug in some kind of newfangled
technological way and impress everybody about your "low dirt rates", but
of course the dirt is still there, and piling up.
And transporting food long distances was essential too.  Bad diets =
early death.
I just wrote that if I'm not living, I'd rather be dead. Living to me
includes a healthy and vital ecosystem. Life to me is also not about a
good diet in exchange for wage slavery, either.
   In the modern world, at least you are alive to complain all the time.  In
past generations, you would already be dead and not worried about
ecosystems.  And diets were horrid in the past.
I think at least some people lived to a ripe old age: Think Benny
Franklin.
BTW, swamp-/marshland is good for ducks, frogs, arthropods, birds, and all
kinds of other creatures-- including us. Apparently, draining it used to
be all the rage.
   Yes, because malarial swamps killed millions of people every year.  The
unintended consequence of draining them was a vastly lower death rate and
better food too.
Malarial swamps in New York? Massachusetts? Connecticut? Okay,
maybe New Jersey, but just "maybe".
Warm Worm
2008-09-16 20:10:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by george conklin
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM,
irradiated, etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk about
_how_ they get them from wherever out of season; as well as about growing
locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again. (kind of like
Amish technology)
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the
death rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates with
famine.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I
see a lot of questionable applications.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates,
such as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if
it ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating plastic
garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and
desire to live truly happily.
Post by george conklin
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so.
Sorry you don't think I don't think so. ;)
Seriously though, plumbing seems fine on the surface, but my point was in
part about contexts and consequences.
As a metaphor; you can sweep dirt under the rug in some kind of newfangled
technological way and impress everybody about your "low dirt rates", but
of course the dirt is still there, and piling up.
Post by george conklin
And transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets =
early death.
I just wrote that if I'm not living, I'd rather be dead. Living to me
includes a healthy and vital ecosystem. Life to me is also not about a
good diet in exchange for wage slavery, either.
In the modern world, at least you are alive to complain all the time. In
past generations, you would already be dead and not worried about
ecosystems. And diets were horrid in the past.
Where/when/how, and compared with industrial fast food and high-sugar
pops and their effects? Despite wisdom to the contrary? Industrial
pesticides? Was 'organic' how everyone farmed in the past?
Post by george conklin
BTW, swamp-/marshland is good for ducks, frogs, arthropods, birds, and all
kinds of other creatures-- including us. Apparently, draining it used to
be all the rage.
Yes, because malarial swamps killed millions of people every year. The
unintended consequence of draining them was a vastly lower death rate and
better food too.
Although I'm no epidemiologist, I'm tempted to wager that, by
eliminating one "disease vector" by some kinds of questionable methods,
you open up a few more.
From what is understood, many swamps and marshes are being
reclaimed/renewed/recreated anyway.
Kris Krieger
2008-09-16 20:47:07 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
Yes, because malarial swamps killed millions of people every year.
The
unintended consequence of draining them was a vastly lower death rate
and better food too.
Although I'm no epidemiologist, I'm tempted to wager that, by
eliminating one "disease vector" by some kinds of questionable methods,
you open up a few more.
It's the "niche" principle. Empty a niche, and *something* will move in to
fill it. Mosquitoes are unfortunately an important food source for other
insects, and for birds.

I don't knwo how to solve the problem of mosquito-borne illness; by the
same token, I don't know how to solve the problem of infections carried by
all the other insect vectors, either. I do know that attempting to
eliminate the insects has led to otehr problems, adn it's theorized taht
insecticides are contributing to honeybee dieoffs (which has severe
ramifications for crops, and all fruits, nuts, and many vegetables are bee-
pollinated) by weakening a bee's immune system, even tho' the insecticides
are designed to not directly kill the bees.
Post by Warm Worm
From what is understood, many swamps and marshes are being
reclaimed/renewed/recreated anyway.
One thing that's been discovered is that coastal wetlands help prevent
inland damage from severe storms by buffering, slowing, and absorbing
significant amounts of storm surge and winds. For this reason, people are
trying to restore as much of Louisiana's coastal wetlands as possible.

Environmental perservations deosn't mean making lots of people-friendly
parkland, it means leaving areas of natural envronmental control, natural
filtering systems, and biodiversity.

Frankly, nature is *hostile*. I recall driving ont arickety road that led
in to a New Jersey salt marsh, and having the car literally covered with
huge creepy golden sucking-flies with alien-looknig sky-blue eyes - if we'd
gotten out fo the car and *then* they showed up, we'd have been eaten
alive. It was like something out of 'The Outer Limits' =8-O !

But salt marshes are necessary, not because they're pleasant parks or cute
petting zoos, but becasue they're nurseries for sea life, buffers against
storms, environemntal filters, and so on. What people have to get past is
this assinine notion that a balanced ecosystem means one gigantic global
people-friendly park. Nope. Wild areas are necessary and their beauty
lies in their balance, the integration of one life-form with another, and
those with the environemnt. Humans benefit from a healthy environment, and
a healthy environemnt is *not* a park. Nature isn't some Disney cartoon
where all the animals are cute'n'cuddly and there's no such thing as a
thorn bush. The value and inportance of wild lands goes beyond human
recreation.
Warm Worm
2008-09-17 02:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Krieger
[snip]
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
Yes, because malarial swamps killed millions of people every year.
The
unintended consequence of draining them was a vastly lower death rate
and better food too.
Although I'm no epidemiologist, I'm tempted to wager that, by
eliminating one "disease vector" by some kinds of questionable methods,
you open up a few more.
It's the "niche" principle. Empty a niche, and *something* will move in to
fill it. Mosquitoes are unfortunately an important food source for other
insects, and for birds.
I don't knwo how to solve the problem of mosquito-borne illness; by the
same token, I don't know how to solve the problem of infections carried by
all the other insect vectors, either. I do know that attempting to
eliminate the insects has led to otehr problems, adn it's theorized taht
insecticides are contributing to honeybee dieoffs (which has severe
ramifications for crops, and all fruits, nuts, and many vegetables are bee-
pollinated) by weakening a bee's immune system, even tho' the insecticides
are designed to not directly kill the bees.
Post by Warm Worm
From what is understood, many swamps and marshes are being
reclaimed/renewed/recreated anyway.
One thing that's been discovered is that coastal wetlands help prevent
inland damage from severe storms by buffering, slowing, and absorbing
significant amounts of storm surge and winds. For this reason, people are
trying to restore as much of Louisiana's coastal wetlands as possible.
Environmental perservations deosn't mean making lots of people-friendly
parkland, it means leaving areas of natural envronmental control, natural
filtering systems, and biodiversity.
Frankly, nature is *hostile*. I recall driving ont arickety road that led
in to a New Jersey salt marsh, and having the car literally covered with
huge creepy golden sucking-flies with alien-looknig sky-blue eyes - if we'd
gotten out fo the car and *then* they showed up, we'd have been eaten
alive. It was like something out of 'The Outer Limits' =8-O !
But salt marshes are necessary, not because they're pleasant parks or cute
petting zoos, but becasue they're nurseries for sea life, buffers against
storms, environemntal filters, and so on. What people have to get past is
this assinine notion that a balanced ecosystem means one gigantic global
people-friendly park. Nope. Wild areas are necessary and their beauty
lies in their balance, the integration of one life-form with another, and
those with the environemnt. Humans benefit from a healthy environment, and
a healthy environemnt is *not* a park. Nature isn't some Disney cartoon
where all the animals are cute'n'cuddly and there's no such thing as a
thorn bush. The value and inportance of wild lands goes beyond human
recreation.
Well said and I quite agree.
Kris Krieger
2008-09-16 17:12:19 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if
it ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating
plastic garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and
desire to live truly happily.
Post by george conklin
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution. Sorry you don't think so.
Sorry you don't think I don't think so. ;)
Seriously though, plumbing seems fine on the surface, but my point was
in part about contexts and consequences.
As a metaphor; you can sweep dirt under the rug in some kind of
newfangled technological way and impress everybody about your "low dirt
rates", but of course the dirt is still there, and piling up.
What's wrong with you, don't you *like* rivers that catch fire? Come on
already, what's not to love - the fish come out pre-boiled! Plus all the
heavy metals add *heft* (and what's wrong with an extra eye or two).
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
And transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets =
early death.
I just wrote that if I'm not living, I'd rather be dead. Living to me
includes a healthy and vital ecosystem. Life to me is also not about a
good diet in exchange for wage slavery, either.
Even more simply and to the point, why export the locally-grown produce and
then import the same produce from hundreds or even thousands of miles
away...? That is what currently happens quite often.
Post by Warm Worm
BTW, swamp-/marshland is good for ducks, frogs, arthropods, birds, and
all kinds of other creatures-- including us. Apparently, draining it
used to be all the rage.
Re-routing/-configuring/-locating water, food, land, etc., can have all
kinds of unintended consequences... which reminds me of the
documentaries, 'Darwin's Nightmare', 'Salton Sea' and the very
http://youtu.be/KZiKBKnesnU
That was actually interesting ;) TOo often, it's a case of "out of sight,
out of mind". The point IMO isn't to turn into a Luddite, but rather, to
take *all* factors into account, to not simply *ignore* the consequences of
various actions, and instead mitigate negative effects.
Kris Krieger
2008-09-16 16:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM,
irradiated, etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk
about _how_ they get them from wherever out of season; as well as
about growing locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again.
(kind of like Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates
with famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such
as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating
plastic garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire
to live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution.
Er, water delivery over distances, and the advantages of washing, were
figured out by the Romans, Arabs, and Chinese long before the industrial
revolution.
Post by george conklin
Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Hot house vegetables can be grown locally, as opposed to importing hot-
house vegetables from far away. For example, the local (Houston area)
grocery sells some types of hot-house tomatoes from Canada. THere's
something weird about that.

Also, fruits, etc., which have to be picked green because they'd otherwise
rot on theri way from Chile or oher distant areas have been shown to be
lower in nutrients than ripe gruit and vegetables. So sorry, but there are
advantages to "going local".
Warm Worm
2008-09-17 02:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Krieger
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM,
irradiated, etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to talk
about _how_ they get them from wherever out of season; as well as
about growing locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails again.
(kind of like Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That equates
with famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see a
lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates, such
as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their postponement or
inevitability); in historical records; quality-of-life; or the inherent
effects of population-expansion on, say, the ecosystem.
If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if it
ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating
plastic garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and desire
to live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution.
Er, water delivery over distances, and the advantages of washing, were
figured out by the Romans, Arabs, and Chinese long before the industrial
revolution.
Post by george conklin
Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Hot house vegetables can be grown locally, as opposed to importing hot-
house vegetables from far away. For example, the local (Houston area)
grocery sells some types of hot-house tomatoes from Canada. THere's
something weird about that.
Also, fruits, etc., which have to be picked green because they'd otherwise
rot on theri way from Chile or oher distant areas have been shown to be
lower in nutrients than ripe gruit and vegetables. So sorry, but there are
advantages to "going local".
Good points in support.
Kris Krieger
2008-09-17 19:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Warm Worm
Post by Kris Krieger
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM,
irradiated, etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to
talk about _how_ they get them from wherever out of season; as well
as about growing locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails
again. (kind of like Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That
equates with famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see
a lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates,
such as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their
postponement or inevitability); in historical records;
quality-of-life; or the inherent effects of population-expansion on,
say, the ecosystem. If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if
it ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating
plastic garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and
desire to live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution.
Er, water delivery over distances, and the advantages of washing, were
figured out by the Romans, Arabs, and Chinese long before the
industrial revolution.
Post by george conklin
Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Hot house vegetables can be grown locally, as opposed to importing hot-
house vegetables from far away. For example, the local (Houston area)
grocery sells some types of hot-house tomatoes from Canada. THere's
something weird about that.
Also, fruits, etc., which have to be picked green because they'd
otherwise rot on theri way from Chile or oher distant areas have been
shown to be lower in nutrients than ripe gruit and vegetables. So
sorry, but there are advantages to "going local".
Good points in support.
Here is an anecdote.

When I lived in Vancouver, BC, I noticed that the beef all strted to taste
"off" - I cut waaaay back on it because I felt like I was eating spoiled or
partially-spoiled meat, that is how nasty the stuff started tasting.
Turned out that the good Canadian beef was being exported, and teh local
stores were getting in Brazilian beef, becaust it was "more profitable".
Nobody ever asked whetehr we might want to at least have teh *opportunity*
to pay mroe for better beef - they just up and switched the supply. I
wonder whether rising fuel prices nixed that...
Warm Worm
2008-09-17 20:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Krieger
Post by Warm Worm
Post by Kris Krieger
Post by george conklin
Post by Warm Worm
Post by george conklin
)
Post by Warm Worm
At any rate, with regard to "fresh", (storage-ripened, GM,
irradiated, etc.) veggies all year round, some are beginning to
talk about _how_ they get them from wherever out of season; as well
as about growing locally... Perhaps commerce ships will use sails
again. (kind of like Amish technology)
It was technology, not "modern" medicine, which brought down the death
rates from their historic highs, the demographic transition. Moving
food long distances was a good bit of the drop. Local? That
equates with famine.
I'm all for "technology", given the wise application of it, and I see
a lot of questionable applications.
I'm also cautious about the context in which we view death-rates,
such as, for some examples, over scales of time (in their
postponement or inevitability); in historical records;
quality-of-life; or the inherent effects of population-expansion on,
say, the ecosystem. If I'm "not living", I might as well be dead.
Plumbing as a "technology", for another example, only goes so far if
it ends up as raw, untreated sewage in our oceans. Likewise with
mass-production plastic manufacturing in reference to the floating
plastic garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific.
The concern with using technology to treat problems brought about by
technology also comes to mind.
It's not so much technology, as the capacity to think wisely and
desire to live truly happily.
Clean water was one of the real benefits of industrialization.
Factories needed lots of water, and water works were needed. So, yes,
plumbing was part of the solution.
Er, water delivery over distances, and the advantages of washing, were
figured out by the Romans, Arabs, and Chinese long before the
industrial revolution.
Post by george conklin
Sorry you don't think so. And
transporting food long distances was essential too. Bad diets = early
death.
Hot house vegetables can be grown locally, as opposed to importing hot-
house vegetables from far away. For example, the local (Houston area)
grocery sells some types of hot-house tomatoes from Canada. THere's
something weird about that.
Also, fruits, etc., which have to be picked green because they'd
otherwise rot on theri way from Chile or oher distant areas have been
shown to be lower in nutrients than ripe gruit and vegetables. So
sorry, but there are advantages to "going local".
Good points in support.
Here is an anecdote.
When I lived in Vancouver, BC, I noticed that the beef all strted to taste
"off" - I cut waaaay back on it because I felt like I was eating spoiled or
partially-spoiled meat, that is how nasty the stuff started tasting.
Turned out that the good Canadian beef was being exported, and teh local
stores were getting in Brazilian beef, becaust it was "more profitable".
Nobody ever asked whetehr we might want to at least have teh *opportunity*
to pay mroe for better beef - they just up and switched the supply. I
wonder whether rising fuel prices nixed that...
More stuff to incense. >:\

Amy Blankenship
2008-09-07 00:13:17 UTC
Permalink
"Pat" <***@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message news:9f01ba28-562f-41c8-b30c-***@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 6, 9:37 am, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
I'm really curious, Jack. Why are you so terrified that people might be
able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
I am not terrified, its just a far less desirable life pushed by people
with the Technology Laggard mental condition. I have a lot of experience
with people that are mentally screwed up with this condition in multiple
technology areas.
How is it less desirable to want to spend less of your time and money
driving from store to store? Please explain.
For both of you, you have to realize that there are different strokes
for different folks. You can't impose your views or priorities on
other and there is no, single right answer. The best you can do is
make alternatives economically feasible.
-------------------------
Also note that Jack couldn't answer why it is more desirable to waste time
and money.
Warm Worm
2008-09-13 20:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Blankenship
On Sep 6, 9:37 am, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
I'm really curious, Jack. Why are you so terrified that people might be
able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
I am not terrified, its just a far less desirable life pushed by people
with the Technology Laggard mental condition. I have a lot of experience
with people that are mentally screwed up with this condition in multiple
technology areas.
How is it less desirable to want to spend less of your time and money
driving from store to store? Please explain.
For both of you, you have to realize that there are different strokes
for different folks. You can't impose your views or priorities on
other and there is no, single right answer. The best you can do is
make alternatives economically feasible.
-------------------------
Also note that Jack couldn't answer why it is more desirable to waste time
and money.
What? So it's not my newsgroup server? ;)
Kris Krieger
2008-09-07 19:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Pat <***@artisticphotography.us> wrote in news:9f01ba28-562f-41c8-b30c-
***@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com:

[snip]
Post by Pat
Driving. I'm okay with it. I can think, listen to books, and talk on
the phone. It's not bid deal. But it's given me the ability to live
in a small down in the middle of nowhere. I can work out of my house,
have time for the kids, etc. From my perspective, I think both of you
are whooped. But again, maybe I'm not the most mainstream guy,
either.
The point was not about any/all driving, the point was about driving short
distances (that are nevertheless too long to walk esp., as I had very
specifically noted, in very hot, humid weather, or in bitterly cold
weather) to go from one cluster of small shops, to another, and questioning
whether it is efficient, and whetehrit's desireable to build more of them,
especially when that sort of stop-and-go short-distance driving is known to
both stress a car's engine, and make gas mileage plummet.

(BTW, both of whom.....?)
Post by Pat
So Amy likes walkable communities. Good for her. Jack recognized
that most people don't give a d**n about planning -- they just want to
live their lives, work their jobs, eat their TV dinners, and watch
American Idol. Good for Jack and good for them.
People will make their decisions based on their likes, dislikes, and
economics. So the more option we have available, the better.
Everyone is out making good choices, from their own perspective.
That is where reliance upon the gov.t to "fix things" is extremely naive,
because gov.t only changes when people demand that it change, pressure it
to do so.

OTOH, it's conversely extremely cynical to say that people simply do not
give a damn. Maybe I've just know weird people, but most of the people
I've known, and lived near, *do* give a damn - they just have no idea what
they *can* do, and they also have limited time (due to working and family
and so on) to devote to doing it. Hell, *I* don't know exactly what I, as
one person, can do. So folks end up frustrated, concentrate on work,
family, and friends, and just cope as best they can with situations they
don't like but feel they can't change. And yes, unscrupulous politicians
and business people *do* take advantage of that, and therefore can get away
with claiming that poorly-working situations are "efficient", when in
reality, they aren't, but people find ways to cope with the situations.

What appears to be "apathy" can all too often be frustration that "you
can't fight city hall", and what appears to be "efficiency" is all too
often just the fact that people can adapt to cope with all sorts of
situations.
Kris Krieger
2008-09-06 19:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
Post by Amy Blankenship
I'm really curious, Jack. Why are you so terrified that people might
be able to live in an environment where they could drive less?
I am not terrified, its just a far less desirable life pushed by people
with the Technology Laggard mental condition. I have a lot of
experience with people that are mentally screwed up with this condition
in multiple technology areas.
They all act the same way. They lie a lot and have great difficulty
dealing with reality. They are not fun and I prefer to avoid these
troubled people. All that can be done is to correct them in the futile
hope that they can ever become rational in normal society.
Hmmm. I like all sorts of tech - tech improves medical diagnosis and
treatment, improves quality of live, keeps my house insulated and cooler,
powers my 4GB of RAM, allows me to ahve a nearly-zero-maintenence pool, and
so on.

But I loathe driving, and esp. loathe driving through strip malls trying to
find some store (esp. when I can get the same thing online, or when the local
stores don't even carry the item I want).

I also prefer a parking garage with areas of trees preserved (esp. when I can
walk in shade from the parking, to the store/mall) (which means a lot durint
hte SUmmer in the Houston area and other Southern cities/towns), to acres of
hot parking lots where you have to make long hikes from the car over a baking
black desoalte stretch of tar.

So that prefrence makes me a "liar" and a "technology laggard", too, I
suppose?

=>:-p
Kris Krieger
2008-09-06 19:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
.
I guess when gas prices get so high people won't be able to afford to
drive around the mall and shop too, things will change.
Men drive to one store when they want to buy something. They seldom go
from store to store shopping. Men tend to hate shopping.
Hence, WalMart. I usually get most of my produce elsewhere, but I can get
just about everything I need in one trip.
Post by Jack May
Women go to large shopping malls more so that they can walk around and
shop at narrow stores. Women of course also shop at strip malls, but I
have not seen many women driving from store to store.
You appear to just be fabricating a lie to justify those deadly diesel
busses that degrade the health and life span of so many people.
Not a lie, just a speculation. And erally, that sort of stpping and starting
*does* wreak havoc with one's gas mileage. WHich is why car mfgr.s have
stoppoed citing *city* MPG estimates, and only advertise *highway* mpg
estimates.
Post by Jack May
Sort of like your other childish nonsense about gasoline prices. Every
car company is developing hybrid cars for alternative fuels and lots of
money is going into the development so that rich people can grab a big
chunk of the six trillion dollar per year market for fuel. The price of
hybrid fuels is expected be far less than gasoline.
I suggested electric (solar-ercharged) shuttles (which would be doable) - but
regardless of fuel/power-supply, those open air plazas remain, IMO, an
annoying pain in the bucket, and I avoid them whenever possible. The
exception is the local Lowe's/pool supply store/HEB (big grocery with good
produce).
Amy Blankenship
2008-09-07 00:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Krieger
I suggested electric (solar-ercharged) shuttles (which would be doable) - but
regardless of fuel/power-supply, those open air plazas remain, IMO, an
annoying pain in the bucket, and I avoid them whenever possible. The
exception is the local Lowe's/pool supply store/HEB (big grocery with good
produce).
Tortillas...mmmm
Kris Krieger
2008-09-07 18:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Kris Krieger
I suggested electric (solar-ercharged) shuttles (which would be doable) - but
regardless of fuel/power-supply, those open air plazas remain, IMO, an
annoying pain in the bucket, and I avoid them whenever possible. The
exception is the local Lowe's/pool supply store/HEB (big grocery with good
produce).
Tortillas...mmmm
Huh...?
Warm Worm
2008-09-13 21:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Krieger
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Kris Krieger
I suggested electric (solar-ercharged) shuttles (which would be doable) - but
regardless of fuel/power-supply, those open air plazas remain, IMO, an
annoying pain in the bucket, and I avoid them whenever possible. The
exception is the local Lowe's/pool supply store/HEB (big grocery with good
produce).
Tortillas...mmmm
Huh...?
Amy Blankenship... mmmm ;}
HVS
2008-09-05 20:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Here's an interesting article. A strip mall wants to keep buses
out. They claim safety, liability, etc. But the thought is
maybe's its an attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e.
blacks). In reality, it's probably because people who ride
buses in suburban Buffalo don't buy very much.
When I studied planning at Toronto in the mid 1970s, one of the case
studies of "exclusion by transport" was a major mall in North Toronto
that had specifically refused to consider a subway link -- even
though the line passed close by -- because the developers wanted to
actively discourage customers who couldn't afford to own a car.

(I was at UofT just after the 1970s' oil crisis; the mall owners by
then were whining that the city wasn't doing enough to extend the
subway to the mall... It's been over 30 years, and I've forgotten
the name of the mall.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Architectural and topographical historian
Kris Krieger
2008-09-05 20:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Here's an interesting article. A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc. But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks). In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
100 acres - holy moly...

I tried to find this on Google Earth but the satellite photo was obviously
taken befopre teh complex was finished (Google Earth doesn't show my house,
so I know that at least parts of it are at least 2 years out of date). But
it does give a very general idea of the lay of the land so to speak.

What I find most surprising is that, in a place with long, cold winters, an
outdoor plaza, that requires people to drive from store to store, would not
be all that popular in the first place. There is a plaza like that about
20 miles from here, in the area we lived in before moving here - I went
there all of about twice (looking for holiday items that were specific to
Williamns and Sonoma, and other unusual holiday stuff), and it was a big
annoying pain in the bucket to be constantly wasting the time going out of
the car then into the car, wasting gas to drive some piddly distance, find
*another* parking space, over and over; the second time I tried walking,
not much fun as it was Summer and 95 degrees with 85% humidity. Bad enough
for a dood in a t-shirt, cross-trainers, and shorts...utter hell for some
lady on a lunch break, or whatever, wearing dress clothes, heels, and
makeup. What an utterly stupid setup.

On top of all that, there were no maps, such as are available in a Mall.
So if you're looking for a certain store, you have to waste the time
driving around in circles - and wrestling with the other drivers who are
doing the same. Traffic probelms? You bet, because the drivers are
looking for shops, not at the road.

I never went back. And that BTW was 2+ yrs ago, before gas prices spiked -
it wasn't the gas prices that kept me away; it was the stupid waste of time
and the dang annoyance.

At eh *least*, these dumbass setups ought to have shuttles - they can use
part of their massive acerage (another peeve - they hugely screw up water
drainiage and soil absorbtion of water) to put up a parking garage with a
solar panel on top, and use it to recharge electric golf cart-type
shuttles. But, nooooo...


And as the article mentions, with higher gas prices, it's even stupider to
specifically design a shopping area that way. Plus, given depressed retail
sales and bus-riders supposedly not buying much - well, as with malls and
other stores, there very few poeple carrying bags these days. Here, most
people seem to go to the mall because it's cool inside and they feel like
walking around a bit. ((Well, it also helps that the closest mall also had
a movie theater with a Beer license :-D )) But seriously!, overall, it
seems like only maybe 5%-10% are buying, and the rest are wandering around,
so it is just plain absurd to turn away potential shoppers because "those
people won't buy much".

So, in terms of just plain business sense, the owner's reasons for
disallowing bus service don't seem to add up. Which *of course* leaves
people wondering.


All in all, I personally can't decide who are the worse jackasses: the
idiots who think these things are a great idea, or the morons who give them
the loans to build them...
Pat
2008-09-06 03:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Krieger
Here's an interesting article.  A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc.  But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks).  In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
100 acres - holy moly...
I tried to find this on Google Earth but the satellite photo was  obviously
taken befopre teh complex was finished (Google Earth doesn't show my house,
so I know that at least parts of it are at least 2 years out of date).  But
it does give a very general idea of the lay of the land so to speak.
This site is now built out. You can see the left half which includes
a Target. In fact, more is built out on the left than what is shown.
So what you can see is about half of what's there.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=mile+strip+road,+hamburg,+ny&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=65.438906,113.203125&ie=UTF8&ll=42.791063,-78.780384&spn=0.003779,0.006909&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.791287,-78.782123&panoid=aEBfQgn-eBflZYthk_feRQ

If you look at the map and click on Street View you'll see more up-to-
date pictures.
Post by Kris Krieger
What I find most surprising is that, in a place with long, cold winters, an
outdoor plaza, that requires people to drive from store to store, would not
be all that popular in the first place.  There is a plaza like that about
20 miles from here, in the area we lived in before moving here - I went
there all of about twice (looking for holiday items that were specific to
Williamns and Sonoma, and other unusual holiday stuff), and it was a big
annoying pain in the bucket to be constantly wasting the time going out of
the car then into the car, wasting gas to drive some piddly distance, find
*another* parking space, over and over; the second time I tried walking,
not much fun as it was Summer and 95 degrees with 85% humidity.  Bad enough
for a dood in a t-shirt, cross-trainers, and shorts...utter hell for some
lady on a lunch break, or whatever, wearing dress clothes, heels, and
makeup.   What an utterly stupid setup.  
On top of all that, there were no maps, such as are available in a Mall.  
So if you're looking for a certain store, you have to waste the time
driving around in circles - and wrestling with the other drivers who are
doing the same.  Traffic probelms?  You bet, because the drivers are
looking for shops, not at the road.
I never went back.  And that BTW was 2+ yrs ago, before gas prices spiked -
it wasn't the gas prices that kept me away; it was the stupid waste of time
and the dang annoyance.  
At eh *least*, these dumbass setups ought to have shuttles - they can use
part of their massive acerage (another peeve - they hugely screw up water
drainiage and soil absorbtion of water) to put up a parking garage with a
solar panel on top, and use it to recharge electric golf cart-type
shuttles.   But, nooooo...
And as the article mentions, with higher gas prices, it's even stupider to
specifically design a shopping area that way.  Plus, given depressed retail
sales and bus-riders supposedly not buying much - well, as with malls and
other stores, there very few poeple carrying bags these days.  Here, most
people seem to go to the mall because it's cool inside and they feel like
walking around a bit.  ((Well, it also helps that the closest mall also had
a movie theater with a Beer license :-D  ))   But seriously!, overall, it
seems like only maybe 5%-10% are buying, and the rest are wandering around,
so it is just plain absurd to turn away potential shoppers because "those
people won't buy much".  
So, in terms of just plain business sense, the owner's reasons for
disallowing bus service don't seem to add up.  Which *of course* leaves
people wondering.
All in all, I personally can't decide who are the worse jackasses: the
idiots who think these things are a great idea, or the morons who give them
the loans to build them...
Amy Blankenship
2008-09-06 03:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Krieger
Post by Pat
Here's an interesting article. A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc. But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks). In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
100 acres - holy moly...
I tried to find this on Google Earth but the satellite photo was
obviously
taken befopre teh complex was finished (Google Earth doesn't show my house,
so I know that at least parts of it are at least 2 years out of date).
But
it does give a very general idea of the lay of the land so to speak.
What I find most surprising is that, in a place with long, cold winters, an
outdoor plaza, that requires people to drive from store to store, would not
be all that popular in the first place. There is a plaza like that about
20 miles from here, in the area we lived in before moving here - I went
there all of about twice (looking for holiday items that were specific to
Williamns and Sonoma, and other unusual holiday stuff), and it was a big
annoying pain in the bucket to be constantly wasting the time going out of
the car then into the car, wasting gas to drive some piddly distance, find
*another* parking space, over and over; the second time I tried walking,
not much fun as it was Summer and 95 degrees with 85% humidity. Bad enough
for a dood in a t-shirt, cross-trainers, and shorts...utter hell for some
lady on a lunch break, or whatever, wearing dress clothes, heels, and
makeup. What an utterly stupid setup.
On top of all that, there were no maps, such as are available in a Mall.
So if you're looking for a certain store, you have to waste the time
driving around in circles - and wrestling with the other drivers who are
doing the same. Traffic probelms? You bet, because the drivers are
looking for shops, not at the road.
I never went back. And that BTW was 2+ yrs ago, before gas prices spiked -
it wasn't the gas prices that kept me away; it was the stupid waste of time
and the dang annoyance.
At eh *least*, these dumbass setups ought to have shuttles - they can use
part of their massive acerage (another peeve - they hugely screw up water
drainiage and soil absorbtion of water) to put up a parking garage with a
solar panel on top, and use it to recharge electric golf cart-type
shuttles. But, nooooo...
And as the article mentions, with higher gas prices, it's even stupider to
specifically design a shopping area that way. Plus, given depressed retail
sales and bus-riders supposedly not buying much - well, as with malls and
other stores, there very few poeple carrying bags these days. Here, most
people seem to go to the mall because it's cool inside and they feel like
walking around a bit. ((Well, it also helps that the closest mall also had
a movie theater with a Beer license :-D )) But seriously!, overall, it
seems like only maybe 5%-10% are buying, and the rest are wandering around,
so it is just plain absurd to turn away potential shoppers because "those
people won't buy much".
So, in terms of just plain business sense, the owner's reasons for
disallowing bus service don't seem to add up. Which *of course* leaves
people wondering.
All in all, I personally can't decide who are the worse jackasses: the
idiots who think these things are a great idea, or the morons who give them
the loans to build them...
Or the Planning Commissions that encourage them!
Pat
2008-09-06 19:52:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 5, 11:50 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Kris Krieger
Here's an interesting article.  A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc.  But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks).  In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
100 acres - holy moly...
I tried to find this on Google Earth but the satellite photo was
obviously
taken befopre teh complex was finished (Google Earth doesn't show my house,
so I know that at least parts of it are at least 2 years out of date).
But
it does give a very general idea of the lay of the land so to speak.
What I find most surprising is that, in a place with long, cold winters, an
outdoor plaza, that requires people to drive from store to store, would not
be all that popular in the first place.  There is a plaza like that about
20 miles from here, in the area we lived in before moving here - I went
there all of about twice (looking for holiday items that were specific to
Williamns and Sonoma, and other unusual holiday stuff), and it was a big
annoying pain in the bucket to be constantly wasting the time going out of
the car then into the car, wasting gas to drive some piddly distance, find
*another* parking space, over and over; the second time I tried walking,
not much fun as it was Summer and 95 degrees with 85% humidity.  Bad
enough
for a dood in a t-shirt, cross-trainers, and shorts...utter hell for some
lady on a lunch break, or whatever, wearing dress clothes, heels, and
makeup.   What an utterly stupid setup.
On top of all that, there were no maps, such as are available in a Mall.
So if you're looking for a certain store, you have to waste the time
driving around in circles - and wrestling with the other drivers who are
doing the same.  Traffic probelms?  You bet, because the drivers are
looking for shops, not at the road.
I never went back.  And that BTW was 2+ yrs ago, before gas prices
spiked -
it wasn't the gas prices that kept me away; it was the stupid waste of time
and the dang annoyance.
At eh *least*, these dumbass setups ought to have shuttles - they can use
part of their massive acerage (another peeve - they hugely screw up water
drainiage and soil absorbtion of water) to put up a parking garage with a
solar panel on top, and use it to recharge electric golf cart-type
shuttles.   But, nooooo...
And as the article mentions, with higher gas prices, it's even stupider to
specifically design a shopping area that way.  Plus, given depressed
retail
sales and bus-riders supposedly not buying much - well, as with malls and
other stores, there very few poeple carrying bags these days.  Here, most
people seem to go to the mall because it's cool inside and they feel like
walking around a bit.  ((Well, it also helps that the closest mall also
had
a movie theater with a Beer license :-D  ))   But seriously!, overall, it
seems like only maybe 5%-10% are buying, and the rest are wandering around,
so it is just plain absurd to turn away potential shoppers because "those
people won't buy much".
So, in terms of just plain business sense, the owner's reasons for
disallowing bus service don't seem to add up.  Which *of course* leaves
people wondering.
All in all, I personally can't decide who are the worse jackasses: the
idiots who think these things are a great idea, or the morons who give them
the loans to build them...
Or the Planning Commissions that encourage them!
Obviously it's providing a whole lot of something that people want.
There are 3 or 4 suburban/stripmall restaurants (Red Robin and Montana
Streak House comes to mind), a really nice wine shop, a big movie
theater, and some other places are on the left. On the right is a
Marshall's (which I walked through to see what it was (nothing
exciting), and Ashley Furniture, and a bunch of stores I've never
heard of -- but then again I haven't heard of most stores anyway.

As for strip malls v. regular malls, I much prefer strip malls. I
don't go "shopping", I go to buy something. I have no desire to walk
past all of the stores I'm not going to go into, to get to the place
where I'm going. Why should I have to walk past 15 womens/girls
clothing stores, 8 cell phone boutiques, 4 places that sell skin stuff
(which I have no idea what it is), 6 shoe stores, and a place that
sells sun glasses when I'm on my way to a sporting goods store to pick
up a new football belt for my son. I'd rather have a strip mall.
In. Out. Done. This whole "walking between stores" things is a
fallacy for people like me. I know what I need, I know where to get
it, and I'm not stopping anywhere else to shop.

I know you prefer neighborhood stores over malls and malls over strip
malls and I respect that. But the answer isn't banning strip malls.
If anything, the better answer would be to ban malls. Whereas strip
malls are pretty utilitarian, malls encourage shopping, which in turn
encourage any number of excesses in our society. We really don't need
places to "shop".

You have to realize that it's over 20 miles to the nearest anything
from here. We've got 2 grocery stores, 6 gas stations, a billion
cigarette shops, a bingo hall and a casino (with over 200 rooms) in
town -- that's about it. So if I go shopping, I'm always combining my
trips. That's why I want in-and-out convenience. Combining trips
isn't about saving gas, for me. It's about saving time.

Now, if I have a LOT of things I need, then it's probably day-to-day
things: frozen food, toiletries, socks, and whatever. That it's
Walmart time. It's the ultimate in saving time and money and gas. I
can't get specialty things there, say toner for the copies, but I can
get photocopy paper there. But I don't go in there to "shop". I know
what I need and I go and get it.

Now back to the different strokes for different folks thing.
Yesterday my office chair broke. I bought it (used) when the hospital
closed about 12 years ago. It's nothing fancy, but a comfortable,
utilitarian chair in an ugly shade of orange. So I needed a new
chair. Actually, I was sort of disheartened because I've had the
chair for so long and I was fairly convinced I would never find a new
one that's as good (Don't even ask me how I felt when I 17-year-old
coffee pot died). I knew a Walmart chair wasn't what I wanted.
Staples is 20 miles in one direction and Office Max is 30 in the
other. I couldn't mail order that (I mail order a lot) because I
couldn't try it out. Now, you have to realize that I live in small
town America -- not a city and not the burbs. So I decided that the
best solution was to dismantle the chair. I found the broken piece
where the vertical shaft joints the place that connects to the bottom
of the chair. I walked the pieces down the street about 100 yards and
dropped it off at my car mechanic's. By the end of the day he had
fixed the broken weld and repainted it. The cost: free. Right there
is the answer to shopping for me. No, it isn't recycling or reuse or
any bull like that. It's fixing it. It's also not shopping for new
stuff just to shop -- which is what malls are all about from what I've
seen.
Jack May
2008-09-06 20:54:01 UTC
Permalink
"Pat" <***@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message news:8a1aad00-5e0a-47c1-abdc-***@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 5, 11:50 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
news:e0380657-55ba-4f2d-a457-
<Now, if I have a LOT of things I need, then it's probably day-to-day
<things: frozen food, toiletries, socks, and whatever. That it's
<Walmart time. It's the ultimate in saving time and money and gas. I
<can't get specialty things there, say toner for the copies, but I can
<get photocopy paper there. But I don't go in there to "shop". I know
<what I need and I go and get it.

Most of my trips are to CostCo for food, etc, the pet store for my two
Himalayan cats, Kaiser for prescriptions/doctor appointments, and hardware
stores as needed. Not anywhere like driving around from store to store in
a strip mall.

A lot of my shopping of course is on the Internet especially for items that
often are not even in local stores. Even clothes and shoes have a far
wider selection on line than local stores.
Kris Krieger
2008-09-07 00:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Pat <***@artisticphotography.us> wrote in news:8a1aad00-5e0a-47c1-abdc-
***@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

[snip]
Post by Pat
As for strip malls v. regular malls, I much prefer strip malls. I
don't go "shopping", I go to buy something. I have no desire to walk
past all of the stores I'm not going to go into, to get to the place
where I'm going. Why should I have to walk past 15 womens/girls
clothing stores, 8 cell phone boutiques, 4 places that sell skin stuff
(which I have no idea what it is), 6 shoe stores, and a place that
sells sun glasses when I'm on my way to a sporting goods store to pick
up a new football belt for my son. I'd rather have a strip mall.
In. Out. Done. This whole "walking between stores" things is a
fallacy for people like me. I know what I need, I know where to get
it, and I'm not stopping anywhere else to shop.
OK, that *is* a point. But I think there is a differnce between strip malls,
and "open air plazas". A reasonably-local strip mall has a Super Wal-Mart,
Lowe's, pool supply place, and large grocery that has good produce - there is a
closer WalMArt, which I go to moer often, but I combine trips whwere possible;
tHer are otehr things in the mix, but I don't pay attention to them.

But a strip mall is different (or at elast, here is different here) from the
local "open-air plazas", which have no large anchors and consist mostly of
small "trendy"/"upscale" stores that spell shop as "shoppe".

I don't know, of course, whether that holds true elsewhere...


[snip]
Amy Blankenship
2008-09-07 00:15:51 UTC
Permalink
"Pat" <***@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message news:8a1aad00-5e0a-47c1-abdc-***@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 5, 11:50 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
news:e0380657-55ba-4f2d-a457-
Here's an interesting article. A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc. But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks). In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
100 acres - holy moly...
I tried to find this on Google Earth but the satellite photo was
obviously
taken befopre teh complex was finished (Google Earth doesn't show my house,
so I know that at least parts of it are at least 2 years out of date).
But
it does give a very general idea of the lay of the land so to speak.
What I find most surprising is that, in a place with long, cold winters, an
outdoor plaza, that requires people to drive from store to store, would not
be all that popular in the first place. There is a plaza like that about
20 miles from here, in the area we lived in before moving here - I went
there all of about twice (looking for holiday items that were specific to
Williamns and Sonoma, and other unusual holiday stuff), and it was a big
annoying pain in the bucket to be constantly wasting the time going out of
the car then into the car, wasting gas to drive some piddly distance, find
*another* parking space, over and over; the second time I tried walking,
not much fun as it was Summer and 95 degrees with 85% humidity. Bad
enough
for a dood in a t-shirt, cross-trainers, and shorts...utter hell for some
lady on a lunch break, or whatever, wearing dress clothes, heels, and
makeup. What an utterly stupid setup.
On top of all that, there were no maps, such as are available in a Mall.
So if you're looking for a certain store, you have to waste the time
driving around in circles - and wrestling with the other drivers who are
doing the same. Traffic probelms? You bet, because the drivers are
looking for shops, not at the road.
I never went back. And that BTW was 2+ yrs ago, before gas prices
spiked -
it wasn't the gas prices that kept me away; it was the stupid waste of time
and the dang annoyance.
At eh *least*, these dumbass setups ought to have shuttles - they can use
part of their massive acerage (another peeve - they hugely screw up water
drainiage and soil absorbtion of water) to put up a parking garage with a
solar panel on top, and use it to recharge electric golf cart-type
shuttles. But, nooooo...
And as the article mentions, with higher gas prices, it's even stupider to
specifically design a shopping area that way. Plus, given depressed
retail
sales and bus-riders supposedly not buying much - well, as with malls and
other stores, there very few poeple carrying bags these days. Here, most
people seem to go to the mall because it's cool inside and they feel like
walking around a bit. ((Well, it also helps that the closest mall also
had
a movie theater with a Beer license :-D )) But seriously!, overall, it
seems like only maybe 5%-10% are buying, and the rest are wandering around,
so it is just plain absurd to turn away potential shoppers because "those
people won't buy much".
So, in terms of just plain business sense, the owner's reasons for
disallowing bus service don't seem to add up. Which *of course* leaves
people wondering.
All in all, I personally can't decide who are the worse jackasses: the
idiots who think these things are a great idea, or the morons who give them
the loans to build them...
Or the Planning Commissions that encourage them!
Obviously it's providing a whole lot of something that people want.
There are 3 or 4 suburban/stripmall restaurants (Red Robin and Montana
Streak House comes to mind), a really nice wine shop, a big movie
theater, and some other places are on the left. On the right is a
Marshall's (which I walked through to see what it was (nothing
exciting), and Ashley Furniture, and a bunch of stores I've never
heard of -- but then again I haven't heard of most stores anyway.
------------------------------------------------------
It should be the job of government not just to provide for current wants,
but also have some kind of thought for future impacts. It used to be
obvious that people wanted to dump their waste in the street.
Jack May
2008-09-07 01:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
On Sep 5, 11:50 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
news:e0380657-55ba-4f2d-a457-
Or the Planning Commissions that encourage them!
Obviously it's providing a whole lot of something that people want.
There are 3 or 4 suburban/stripmall restaurants (Red Robin and Montana
Streak House comes to mind), a really nice wine shop, a big movie
theater, and some other places are on the left. On the right is a
Marshall's (which I walked through to see what it was (nothing
exciting), and Ashley Furniture, and a bunch of stores I've never
heard of -- but then again I haven't heard of most stores anyway.
It is obvious that the owner of the mall wants to attract as many people as
possible to make a lot of money. Why would that be surprising? People
that become rich tend to be very good at their job.

I would not expect a planning commission to do anything significant. Most
Government planners that I have experience with are far too incompetent to
do anything that will turn out to be attractive to consumers.
Pat
2008-09-07 12:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
Post by Jack May
On Sep 5, 11:50 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
news:e0380657-55ba-4f2d-a457-
Or the Planning Commissions that encourage them!
Obviously it's providing a whole lot of something that people want.
There are 3 or 4 suburban/stripmall restaurants (Red Robin and Montana
Streak House comes to mind), a really nice wine shop, a big movie
theater, and some other places are on the left.  On the right is a
Marshall's (which I walked through to see what it was (nothing
exciting), and Ashley Furniture, and a bunch of stores I've never
heard of -- but then again I haven't heard of most stores anyway.
It is obvious that the owner of the mall wants to attract as many people as
possible to make a lot of money.   Why would that be surprising?  People
that become rich tend to be very good at their job.
I would not expect a planning commission to do anything significant.  Most
Government planners that I have experience with are far too incompetent to
do anything that will turn out to be attractive to consumers.
You're being much too polite.
Pat
2008-09-07 12:59:15 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 6, 8:15 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Jack May
On Sep 5, 11:50 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
news:e0380657-55ba-4f2d-a457-
Here's an interesting article. A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc. But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks). In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
100 acres - holy moly...
I tried to find this on Google Earth but the satellite photo was
obviously
taken befopre teh complex was finished (Google Earth doesn't show my house,
so I know that at least parts of it are at least 2 years out of date).
But
it does give a very general idea of the lay of the land so to speak.
What I find most surprising is that, in a place with long, cold winters, an
outdoor plaza, that requires people to drive from store to store, would not
be all that popular in the first place. There is a plaza like that about
20 miles from here, in the area we lived in before moving here - I went
there all of about twice (looking for holiday items that were specific to
Williamns and Sonoma, and other unusual holiday stuff), and it was a big
annoying pain in the bucket to be constantly wasting the time going out of
the car then into the car, wasting gas to drive some piddly distance, find
*another* parking space, over and over; the second time I tried walking,
not much fun as it was Summer and 95 degrees with 85% humidity. Bad
enough
for a dood in a t-shirt, cross-trainers, and shorts...utter hell for some
lady on a lunch break, or whatever, wearing dress clothes, heels, and
makeup. What an utterly stupid setup.
On top of all that, there were no maps, such as are available in a Mall.
So if you're looking for a certain store, you have to waste the time
driving around in circles - and wrestling with the other drivers who are
doing the same. Traffic probelms? You bet, because the drivers are
looking for shops, not at the road.
I never went back. And that BTW was 2+ yrs ago, before gas prices
spiked -
it wasn't the gas prices that kept me away; it was the stupid waste of time
and the dang annoyance.
At eh *least*, these dumbass setups ought to have shuttles - they can use
part of their massive acerage (another peeve - they hugely screw up water
drainiage and soil absorbtion of water) to put up a parking garage with a
solar panel on top, and use it to recharge electric golf cart-type
shuttles. But, nooooo...
And as the article mentions, with higher gas prices, it's even stupider to
specifically design a shopping area that way. Plus, given depressed
retail
sales and bus-riders supposedly not buying much - well, as with malls and
other stores, there very few poeple carrying bags these days. Here, most
people seem to go to the mall because it's cool inside and they feel like
walking around a bit. ((Well, it also helps that the closest mall also
had
a movie theater with a Beer license :-D )) But seriously!, overall, it
seems like only maybe 5%-10% are buying, and the rest are wandering around,
so it is just plain absurd to turn away potential shoppers because "those
people won't buy much".
So, in terms of just plain business sense, the owner's reasons for
disallowing bus service don't seem to add up. Which *of course* leaves
people wondering.
All in all, I personally can't decide who are the worse jackasses: the
idiots who think these things are a great idea, or the morons who give them
the loans to build them...
Or the Planning Commissions that encourage them!
Obviously it's providing a whole lot of something that people want.
There are 3 or 4 suburban/stripmall restaurants (Red Robin and Montana
Streak House comes to mind), a really nice wine shop, a big movie
theater, and some other places are on the left.  On the right is a
Marshall's (which I walked through to see what it was (nothing
exciting), and Ashley Furniture, and a bunch of stores I've never
heard of -- but then again I haven't heard of most stores anyway.
------------------------------------------------------
It should be the job of government not just to provide for current wants,
but also have some kind of thought for future impacts.  It used to be
obvious that people wanted to dump their waste in the street.
So let me get this straight. If I worked for the government or was an
elected official; I get to put MY morals, goals, desires, etc on to
YOU. So if I want to stop suburban sprawl, I could eliminate all of
the things I find undesirable but that you might like. So I could
just limit the mall by banning all womens shoe stores, women's
clothing stores, uppity shoppes of any type, health food stores, up-
scale department stores, strip-mall type restaurants and movie
theaters. Wow. That would sure put an end to the strip mall business
-- and regular stores. Oh, and I don't shop at "neighborhood stores"
so I could get rid of them, too. So you'd be happy with clearing out
almost eveything but Walmart, Target, Lowes, Hope Depot and Staples
because that's where I do 99% of my shopping? That would drastically
reduce the retail footprint, and that's a good thing, right? Or is it
that we should only keep the things that YOU like?
Kris Krieger
2008-09-07 19:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
On Sep 6, 8:15 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
[snip]
Post by Pat
Post by Pat
Obviously it's providing a whole lot of something that people want.
There are 3 or 4 suburban/stripmall restaurants (Red Robin and Montana
Streak House comes to mind), a really nice wine shop, a big movie
theater, and some other places are on the left.  On the right is a
Marshall's (which I walked through to see what it was (nothing
exciting), and Ashley Furniture, and a bunch of stores I've never
heard of -- but then again I haven't heard of most stores anyway.
------------------------------------------------------
It should be the job of government not just to provide for current wants,
but also have some kind of thought for future impacts.  It used to be
obvious that people wanted to dump their waste in the street.
So let me get this straight. If I worked for the government or was an
elected official; I get to put MY morals, goals, desires, etc on to
YOU. So if I want to stop suburban sprawl, I could eliminate all of
the things I find undesirable but that you might like. So I could
just limit the mall by banning all womens shoe stores, women's
clothing stores, uppity shoppes of any type, health food stores, up-
scale department stores, strip-mall type restaurants and movie
theaters. Wow. That would sure put an end to the strip mall business
-- and regular stores. Oh, and I don't shop at "neighborhood stores"
so I could get rid of them, too. So you'd be happy with clearing out
almost eveything but Walmart, Target, Lowes, Hope Depot and Staples
because that's where I do 99% of my shopping? That would drastically
reduce the retail footprint, and that's a good thing, right? Or is it
that we should only keep the things that YOU like?
THat's a consideration.

I don';t think it's "governemtn" alone - that's too dangerous.

What the originally-posted artice didn't talk about was how much business
the place actualyl does.

Personally, I don't like the open plazas I've seen. Again, not the same in
this areas as strip malls. Strip malls here are pretty much exactly that -
almost linear in layout. THey usually have at least one large "anchor"
store, and often more (like teh one complex that cosists mainly of the
Super WalMart and the Lowe's, with some space on th eopposite side fo the
parking lot devoted to a fast food restaurant and some small stores, one fo
which is the pool supply store).

In all fairness, I was the one, not AMy, who mentioned "shoppe", because
locally, yes, the open-air plazas (where the clusters of stores are spread
out and you have ot drive around between them) *DO* tend to have trendy
upscale "shoppes". (I don't think I said "uppity", IIRC I said
"upscale"...) I also said that I think it's goofy to have that sort of
thing here, because a significant part of the year is *so* hot and humid
that it's nasty to have to go back and forth to the car - and that the
local one I know of has never, that I've seen, had a full parking lot. I
also was the one who said that parking garages with covered walkways to
stores are preferable in a hotclimte (and prob. also a very cold one) to
making people go back and forth to their cars to get from store to store.

I *do* think that open plazas with widely-separates closters fo stores are
IMo not practical (hence, "goofy") and yup, I do hate them and don't use
them. Again, tho', locally, not the same thing as a strip mall, whcih *do*
tend to cluster stores together (and have smaller parkling lots in between)
such that one *can* walk between smaller stores - so, if you have to get a
Father's Day card and tehn develop some film, i'ts not all that far to walk
from the card shop to the place that develops film (and tehn to a couple
good restaurants).


THat being said, I do think that AMy tends to rely too heavily upon teh
concept of governemnt regulation - on the very surface of it, it can sound
good, but in practice, gov.t all too often does *not* encourage creative
thinking, innovation, or, really, honesty and ethical behavior.

Do I think that planning could be done better? You betcha! But putting it
into the hands of gov.t is *not* an answer. If it were, we'd already have
better planning. WHat is the answer? Well, I don't really know, other
than that people need to look at situations and see what works well, and
what works poorly, eliminate the latter, and concentrate on the evolution
of what works well. Unfortunately, gov.t tends to do more of teh same as
has already been done, meaning that what works poorly is generally *not*
eliminated. ANd the only way to change *that* is to get better people in
office - but you can't get better people in office if voters prefer quippy
(or snarky) sound-bites to actual information, and prefer candidates who
trell them what they want to hear, rather than those who tell them what
they need to hear. SO, in essence, as with everythign else in a
republic/democracy, it has to start with We The People. If peole don;t
vote intelligent folks into office, and if people don't want to exert
themselves to put pressure on their elected offocials to come up with
better ways of doing things, then they've only themselves to blame when
things get done poorly - because simply voting for some schlepp, and then
leaving everything in the hands of said schlepp with Zero oversight, only
*encourages* inefficiancy, unintelligent choices, and even lack of ethics.
Pat
2008-09-08 01:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Krieger
Post by Pat
On Sep 6, 8:15 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
[snip]
Post by Pat
Post by Pat
Obviously it's providing a whole lot of something that people want.
There are 3 or 4 suburban/stripmall restaurants (Red Robin and Montana
Streak House comes to mind), a really nice wine shop, a big movie
theater, and some other places are on the left.  On the right is a
Marshall's (which I walked through to see what it was (nothing
exciting), and Ashley Furniture, and a bunch of stores I've never
heard of -- but then again I haven't heard of most stores anyway.
------------------------------------------------------
It should be the job of government not just to provide for current
wants,
Post by Pat
Post by Pat
but also have some kind of thought for future impacts.  It used to be
obvious that people wanted to dump their waste in the street.
So let me get this straight.  If I worked for the government or was an
elected official; I get to put MY morals, goals, desires, etc on to
YOU.  So if I want to stop suburban sprawl, I could eliminate all of
the things I find undesirable but that you might like.  So I could
just limit the mall by banning all womens shoe stores, women's
clothing stores, uppity shoppes of any type, health food stores, up-
scale department stores, strip-mall type restaurants and movie
theaters.  Wow.  That would sure put an end to the strip mall business
-- and regular stores.  Oh, and I don't shop at "neighborhood stores"
so I could get rid of them, too.  So you'd be happy with clearing out
almost eveything but Walmart, Target, Lowes, Hope Depot and Staples
because that's where I do 99% of my shopping?  That would drastically
reduce the retail footprint, and that's a good thing, right?  Or is it
that we should only keep the things that YOU like?
THat's a consideration.
I don';t think it's "governemtn" alone - that's too dangerous.  
What the originally-posted artice didn't talk about was how much business
the place actualyl does.
Personally, I don't like the open plazas I've seen.  Again, not the same in
this areas as strip malls.  Strip malls here are pretty much exactly that -
almost linear in layout.  THey usually have at least one large "anchor"
store, and often more (like teh one complex that cosists mainly of the
Super WalMart and the Lowe's, with some space on th eopposite side fo the
parking lot devoted to a fast food restaurant and some small stores, one fo
which is the pool supply store).
In all fairness, I was the one, not AMy, who mentioned "shoppe", because
locally, yes, the open-air plazas (where the clusters of stores are spread
out and you have ot drive around between them) *DO* tend to have trendy
upscale "shoppes".  (I don't think I said "uppity", IIRC I said
"upscale"...)  I also said that I think it's goofy to have that sort of
thing here, because a significant part of the year is *so* hot and humid
that it's nasty to have to go back and forth to the car - and that the
local one I know of has never, that I've seen, had a full parking lot.  I
also was the one who said that parking garages with covered walkways to
stores are preferable in a hotclimte (and prob. also a very cold one) to
making people go back and forth to their cars to get from store to store.
I *do* think that open plazas with widely-separates closters fo stores are
IMo not practical (hence, "goofy") and yup, I do hate them and don't use
them.  Again, tho', locally, not the same thing as a strip mall, whcih *do*
tend to cluster stores together (and have smaller parkling lots in between)
such that one *can* walk between smaller stores - so, if you have to get a
Father's Day card and tehn develop some film, i'ts not all that far to walk  
from the card shop to the place that develops film (and tehn to a couple
good restaurants).
THat being said, I do think that AMy tends to rely too heavily upon teh
concept of governemnt regulation - on the very surface of it, it can sound
good, but in practice, gov.t all too often does *not* encourage creative
thinking, innovation, or, really, honesty and ethical behavior.
Do I think that planning could be done better?  You betcha!  But putting it
into the hands of gov.t is *not* an answer.  If it were, we'd already have
better planning.  WHat is the answer?  Well, I don't really know, other
than that people need to look at situations and see what works well, and
what works poorly, eliminate the latter, and concentrate on the evolution
of what works well.  Unfortunately, gov.t tends to do more of teh same as
has already been done, meaning that what works poorly is generally *not*
eliminated.  ANd the only way to change *that* is to get better people in
office - but you can't get better people in office if voters prefer quippy
(or snarky) sound-bites to actual information, and prefer candidates who
trell them what they want to hear, rather than those who tell them what
they need to hear.  SO, in essence, as with everythign else in a
republic/democracy, it has to start with We The People.  If peole don;t
vote intelligent folks into office, and if people don't want to exert
themselves to put pressure on their elected offocials to come up with
better ways of doing things, then they've only themselves to blame when
things get done poorly - because simply voting for some schlepp, and then
leaving everything in the hands of said schlepp with Zero oversight, only
*encourages* inefficiancy, unintelligent choices, and even lack of ethics.
This is more of what you would call a plaza than a strip mall. It has
all of a upscale, uppity shoppes.

As for covered walkays, well we might have "days" of hot and humid,
but not any extended period. It's 55F right now. But snow... well
that's another story. Covering won't help much -- too much blowing.

As for politians ...
Kris Krieger
2008-09-08 22:05:10 UTC
Permalink
[snipped due to bad wrapping]
Post by Pat
.
This is more of what you would call a plaza than a strip mall. It has
all of a upscale, uppity shoppes.
Why not just call them "upscale" and be done with it?
Post by Pat
As for covered walkays, well we might have "days" of hot and humid,
but not any extended period. It's 55F right now. But snow... well
that's another story. Covering won't help much -- too much blowing.
Some places have enclosed walkways. Others don't need them.

Whatever.
Post by Pat
As for politians ...
Pat
2008-09-09 00:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Krieger
[snipped due to bad wrapping]
.
This is more of what you would call a plaza than a strip mall.  It has
all of a upscale, uppity shoppes.
Why not just call them "upscale" and be done with it?
As for covered walkays, well we might have "days" of hot and humid,
but not any extended period.  It's 55F right now.  But snow... well
that's another story.  Covering won't help much -- too much blowing.
Some places have enclosed walkways.  Others don't need them.
Whatever.  
As for politians ...
When you enclose the walkway, you have to deal with the wind (which is
pretty constant) and duning (that doesn't look right, but it's the
gerund form of dune) from the snow. Duning is a bid issue so in the
area.
drydem
2008-09-06 04:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Here's an interesting article.  A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc.  But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks).  In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
ISTM developers of suburban retail centers are only
focused on customers who arrive by cars or trucks. Customers
who ride buses (like pedestrians) are limited to purchase
that they can carry -
Ken S. Tucker
2008-09-06 13:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Here's an interesting article. A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc. But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks). In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
Personally I wouldn't want a noisy stinky bus running
through my plaza, curb service is fine.
Most "inner city" people enjoy the convenience of many
close by stores within walking / taxi distance.
I like the idea of *bumper cars* to get around big malls.
Ken
++
2008-09-06 18:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken S. Tucker
Post by Pat
Here's an interesting article. A strip mall wants to keep buses out.
They claim safety, liability, etc. But the thought is maybe's its an
attempt to keep out people from the city (i.e. blacks). In reality,
it's probably because people who ride buses in suburban Buffalo don't
buy very much.
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/431368.html
Personally I wouldn't want a noisy stinky bus running
through my plaza, curb service is fine.
Most "inner city" people enjoy the convenience of many
close by stores within walking / taxi distance.
I like the idea of *bumper cars* to get around big malls.
Ken
This sort of thing already exists in large supermarkets and box stores,
a kind of motorized gigantic shopping cart for adults, and for the
kiddies, little bumper cars with baskets
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