New cities cost money

[george conklin]

Here is a post from NC which suggests that new cities (called towns in the
article) cost the county money and make it harder to build new schools. I
am posting it without comment:

---------

Davidson County officials say they have lost more than $1 million in
sales-tax revenue after Midway and Wallburg became towns. And with talk of
Southmont incorporating, they fear losing more.

Last night, the commissioners tabled a request from a group pushing to make
Southmont into a town. The group asked the commissioners to send a letter
outlining what kind of services the county would provide if Southmont became
a town. It wasn't a letter asking for support because the effort is in the
preliminary stages.

But with two incorporations within the past five years, Davidson County
commissioners were clearly wary of the possibility of a third new town.

"I don't think we're ready to send a letter of any type unless it's a letter
to say we're not ready to send a letter," said Don Truell, the vice chairman
of the board of commissioners.

Wallburg incorporated in 2004, and the General Assembly approved Midway's
incorporation last year.

.....Commissioners have become increasingly concerned about the revenue the
county loses when a new town is formed.

In June, commissioners voted to charge both Wallburg and Midway a total of
$123,510 for law-enforcement services. But Midway officials sent out a
letter yesterday opposing the charges.

"I know of no legal requirement to distribute the county's cost to the Town
of Midway in this fashion," Warren Kasper, the town's attorney, said in the
letter. "Nor is the town required to accept this shifting of statutorily
mandated county expense, and it chooses not to do so."

Commissioner Max Walser said he is not opposed to Southmont incorporating,
but he is worried about the effect on the county's finances when new towns
are formed, especially since the county builds the schools.

"We lose the sales-tax money," Walser said. "It cuts down on the ability to
build schools."

[Stephen Sprunk]

Post by george conklin
Here is a post from NC which suggests that new cities (called towns in the
article) cost the county money and make it harder to build new schools. I
---------
Davidson County officials say they have lost more than $1 million in
sales-tax revenue after Midway and Wallburg became towns. And with talk of
Southmont incorporating, they fear losing more.

Sounds like NC's tax model is broken; there's nothing earth-shattering
there, nor does it have anything to do with the claim "new cities cost
money" (which I make no comment on).

Here, counties and school districts collect the exact same taxes, and are
required to provide the same services, whether a given area is in an
incorporated city/town or not. The city/town may collect additional taxes
of its own, as specified by state law, if there are things the residents
want above what the county is obligated to provide.

S

[Pat]

Post by Stephen Sprunk

Post by george conklin
Here is a post from NC which suggests that new cities (called towns in the
article) cost the county money and make it harder to build new schools. I
---------
Davidson County officials say they have lost more than $1 million in
sales-tax revenue after Midway and Wallburg became towns. And with talk of
Southmont incorporating, they fear losing more.

Sounds like NC's tax model is broken; there's nothing earth-shattering
there, nor does it have anything to do with the claim "new cities cost
money" (which I make no comment on).
Here, counties and school districts collect the exact same taxes, and are
required to provide the same services, whether a given area is in an
incorporated city/town or not. The city/town may collect additional taxes
of its own, as specified by state law, if there are things the residents
want above what the county is obligated to provide.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

In NYS, the counties also provide the same services no matter where
you are with the exception of road maintenance on county roads --
there are few county roads inside of cities. Cities are also entitled
to Sheriff patrols to whatever extent they patrol elsewere but cities
usually have their own police forces (as do some villages and towns).

In NYS, all places are in a county. All places are also inside of
either a city or a town. Some places are villages, which are inside
of towns. Villages were originally created as the mother of all
special districts to provide water, sewer, etc. Villages also have
the ability to cross town and county borders, so they are useful for
communities that straddle a border.

Unlike the article, in NYS sales tax is apportioned by agreement in
most places. Generally cities get their own and towns split the town-
wide pot based on population -- but it varies from county to county.
Complicating that is the fact that not all counties have a city nor do
all counties have a town.

Many rural counties have counties don't have any cities -- just
towns. In NYC, there are 5 counties within the city. Manhattan is
New York County, Staten Island is Richmond County, etc. That's why on
TV such as Law and Order, it is the Manhattan District Attorney not
the city-wide one. DA is a county function, not a city one, so
there's an elected DA for each county/borough.

Also in NY, school are autonomous and have no relationship to other
governments except for some "City school districts". They have their
own elected boards, can cross county lines, etc.

As for the article, the town doesn't "cost" any money but it could
redistribute it.

There is a place in New York just outside of Lake George that is
trying a similar thing. It is a very small enclave of very pricey
homes. They want to form a village to get out from some of the town
taxes for maintaining town roads, etc. The area has a huge tax base
and almost no roads.

[Stephen Sprunk]

Post by Pat

Post by Stephen Sprunk
Here, counties and school districts collect the exact same taxes,
and are required to provide the same services, whether a given
area is in an incorporated city/town or not. The city/town may
collect additional taxes of its own, as specified by state law, if
there are things the residents want above what the county is
obligated to provide.

In NYS, the counties also provide the same services no matter
where you are with the exception of road maintenance on county
roads -- there are few county roads inside of cities. Cities are
also entitled to Sheriff patrols to whatever extent they patrol
elsewere but cities usually have their own police forces (as do
some villages and towns).
In NYS, all places are in a county. All places are also inside of
either a city or a town. Some places are villages, which are inside
of towns. Villages were originally created as the mother of all
special districts to provide water, sewer, etc. Villages also have
the ability to cross town and county borders, so they are useful for
communities that straddle a border.

Interesting. In Texas, we just have municipalities (which may call
themselves cities, towns, or villages, but they're all the same thing --
I'll just refer to cities for brevity) and counties. A city can cross
county lines. Areas not in a city are referred to as "unincorporated
areas". In theory, a place could be not in a county as well, but IIRC the
entire state was carved up into counties (254 of them) roughly a century
ago, and today's law doesn't seem to account for that case anymore. We have
nothing similar to "townships" or "boroughs".

Counties handle the court systems, jails, roads, tax collection, elections,
and various records on behalf of the state. There's not much in the way of
local state offices for anything, though there's a few notable examples like
driver's license offices (which are officially part of the state police).
The state generally limits itself to coordinating activities between local
entities, and since there's no state income tax, has very little budget of
its own. The legislature mainly passes laws on what local entities are
allowed/required to do, and it's up to those local entities to collect the
taxes necessary to do it. Due to the way the state constitution is written,
the state has no powers other than what are explicitly granted (unlike the
US's "necessary and proper" clause).

Post by Pat
Unlike the article, in NYS sales tax is apportioned by agreement in
most places. Generally cities get their own and towns split the town-
wide pot based on population -- but it varies from county to county.
Complicating that is the fact that not all counties have a city nor do
all counties have a town.

Interesting. Here, it's a requirement that every county have at least one
city, because organizing a county required designating a city as the county
seat. Most counties don't have more than one city, but the most populous
counties may have a dozen or two. A typical county is about 900sqmi -- a
30x30mi square, basically the range a man on horseback could have been
reasonably expected to travel on official business; the county seat is
almost always in the center.

Post by Pat
Also in NY, school are autonomous and have no relationship to
other governments except for some "City school districts". They
have their own elected boards, can cross county lines, etc.

Here, school districts are similarly a direct subdivision of the state; they
were originally set at the county lines, but there's all sorts of rules on
how the lines can be moved, districts can be split or merged, etc. and they
now have little resemblance to counties. School districts collect their own
taxes, though the state's "robin hood" law does redistribute some money
between districts in a futile attempt to level things out (which resulted in
every district dropping their tax rates to qualify as "poor", and now all
the public schools suffer, even ones in "rich" areas -- the law of
unintended consequences at work).

There are various other types of special-purpose districts, like utility
districts (for unincorporated areas that want central water and sewers,
which counties won't provide), mass transit districts (obvious), property
improvement districts (basically, a group of landowners tax themselves and
then spend the money jointly on the commons), etc.

Post by Pat
As for the article, the town doesn't "cost" any money but it could
redistribute it.

Well, if the county is obligated to continue providing services, but it gets
less money to do so, then it's fair to say that said redistribution is
"costing" the county money. The intent of NC's legislature for the "town"
to take over those functions seems clear, but they don't seem obligated to.
That's a rather gaping loophole.

Post by Pat
There is a place in New York just outside of Lake George that is
trying a similar thing. It is a very small enclave of very pricey
homes. They want to form a village to get out from some of the
town taxes for maintaining town roads, etc. The area has a huge
tax base and almost no roads.

Interesting. Here, if the county provides something, everyone in the county
pays for it, whether they're in a city or not. If people incorporate a new
city, that allows them to provide additional services (in return for
additional taxes), but that's it. It's mainly done these days to avoid
getting annexed by a larger city that's expanding, and even that is rare.

Smaller cities often leech off of services provided by those larger cities
nearby; for example, the City of Dallas (not the County of Dallas) actually
maintains the lakes, rivers, levees, water treatment, parks, etc. for the
entire county due to some historical oddity, which means that anyone living
in the other cities in the county gets those things for free. Dallas's
enclave of Highland Park, for instance, has tax rates a tiny fraction of
Dallas's because of high property values and virtually no expenses; it's all
two-lane roads and million-dollar houses -- houses people couldn't afford if
they had to pay Dallas's tax rate.

S

[Pat]

Post by Stephen Sprunk

Post by Pat

Post by Stephen Sprunk
Here, counties and school districts collect the exact same taxes,
and are required to provide the same services, whether a given
area is in an incorporated city/town or not. The city/town may
collect additional taxes of its own, as specified by state law, if
there are things the residents want above what the county is
obligated to provide.

In NYS, the counties also provide the same services no matter
where you are with the exception of road maintenance on county
roads -- there are few county roads inside of cities. Cities are
also entitled to Sheriff patrols to whatever extent they patrol
elsewere but cities usually have their own police forces (as do
some villages and towns).
In NYS, all places are in a county. All places are also inside of
either a city or a town. Some places are villages, which are inside
of towns. Villages were originally created as the mother of all
special districts to provide water, sewer, etc. Villages also have
the ability to cross town and county borders, so they are useful for
communities that straddle a border.

Interesting. In Texas, we just have municipalities (which may call
themselves cities, towns, or villages, but they're all the same thing --
I'll just refer to cities for brevity) and counties. A city can cross
county lines. Areas not in a city are referred to as "unincorporated
areas". In theory, a place could be not in a county as well, but IIRC the
entire state was carved up into counties (254 of them) roughly a century
ago, and today's law doesn't seem to account for that case anymore. We have
nothing similar to "townships" or "boroughs".
Counties handle the court systems, jails, roads, tax collection, elections,
and various records on behalf of the state. There's not much in the way of
local state offices for anything, though there's a few notable examples like
driver's license offices (which are officially part of the state police).
The state generally limits itself to coordinating activities between local
entities, and since there's no state income tax, has very little budget of
its own. The legislature mainly passes laws on what local entities are
allowed/required to do, and it's up to those local entities to collect the
taxes necessary to do it. Due to the way the state constitution is written,
the state has no powers other than what are explicitly granted (unlike the
US's "necessary and proper" clause).

Post by Pat
Unlike the article, in NYS sales tax is apportioned by agreement in
most places. Generally cities get their own and towns split the town-
wide pot based on population -- but it varies from county to county.
Complicating that is the fact that not all counties have a city nor do
all counties have a town.

Interesting. Here, it's a requirement that every county have at least one
city, because organizing a county required designating a city as the county
seat. Most counties don't have more than one city, but the most populous
counties may have a dozen or two. A typical county is about 900sqmi -- a
30x30mi square, basically the range a man on horseback could have been
reasonably expected to travel on official business; the county seat is
almost always in the center.

Post by Pat
Also in NY, school are autonomous and have no relationship to
other governments except for some "City school districts". They
have their own elected boards, can cross county lines, etc.

Here, school districts are similarly a direct subdivision of the state; they
were originally set at the county lines, but there's all sorts of rules on
how the lines can be moved, districts can be split or merged, etc. and they
now have little resemblance to counties. School districts collect their own
taxes, though the state's "robin hood" law does redistribute some money
between districts in a futile attempt to level things out (which resulted in
every district dropping their tax rates to qualify as "poor", and now all
the public schools suffer, even ones in "rich" areas -- the law of
unintended consequences at work).
There are various other types of special-purpose districts, like utility
districts (for unincorporated areas that want central water and sewers,
which counties won't provide), mass transit districts (obvious), property
improvement districts (basically, a group of landowners tax themselves and
then spend the money jointly on the commons), etc.

Post by Pat
As for the article, the town doesn't "cost" any money but it could
redistribute it.

Well, if the county is obligated to continue providing services, but it gets
less money to do so, then it's fair to say that said redistribution is
"costing" the county money. The intent of NC's legislature for the "town"
to take over those functions seems clear, but they don't seem obligated to.
That's a rather gaping loophole.

Post by Pat
There is a place in New York just outside of Lake George that is
trying a similar thing. It is a very small enclave of very pricey
homes. They want to form a village to get out from some of the
town taxes for maintaining town roads, etc. The area has a huge
tax base and almost no roads.

Interesting. Here, if the county provides something, everyone in the county
pays for it, whether they're in a city or not. If people incorporate a new
city, that allows them to provide additional services (in return for
additional taxes), but that's it. It's mainly done these days to avoid
getting annexed by a larger city that's expanding, and even that is rare.
Smaller cities often leech off of services provided by those larger cities
nearby; for example, the City of Dallas (not the County of Dallas) actually
maintains the lakes, rivers, levees, water treatment, parks, etc. for the
entire county due to some historical oddity, which means that anyone living
in the other cities in the county gets those things for free. Dallas's
enclave of Highland Park, for instance, has tax rates a tiny fraction of
Dallas's because of high property values and virtually no expenses; it's all
two-lane roads and million-dollar houses -- houses people couldn't afford if
they had to pay Dallas's tax rate.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

NY uses it's income tax to redistribute wealth between the richer and
poor parts of the state. School aid is a big portion of the state's
budget but there's also a lot for policing, state prisons, higher
education, graft, etc. And medicaid is a huge issue everywhere.

In our school district, which is in a pretty rural and very poor area
of the state (on an Indian Reservation in Appalachia), our school
taxes are pretty low. If we paid the full shot, we couldn't afford to
meet the state standards. We pay only about 5% of our school budget,
the rest is state and federal aid. Then through another state
program, most people get back most of what they paid. For instance, I
think my rebate is within about $5 of may school tax bill. I pay less
than $1000 per year for school, city, and county taxes. The state
income tax isn't too bad because it's hugely progressive. No one
earning under abot $25,000 per year pays any state taxes. Then it's
about 9% of after that. So someone who earns $50,000 a year pays
about 2,500 in taxes -- that's not too bad.

[george conklin]

Post by Pat
As for the article, the town doesn't "cost" any money but it could
redistribute it.

Since the counties (NOT cities) build schools, and the state pays the
teacher salaries (which can be supplemented by counties), when sales tax
revenue goes to cities there is less for the country and thus less for
things like schools and public health. Thus the article was expressing
conern about this.