Wal-Mart won't go to NYC

[Pat]

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1605388,00.html

Wal-Mart: Please Come to New York!

When Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott told the New York Times earlier this week
that he was finished trying to build stores in New York City, one of
his aides was quick to point out that he was only referring to
Manhattan, where ground-floor space rents for about $500 a square
foot, and not the city's other four boroughs. But when I talked to
Scott the next day, he assured me that he said what he meant. The
whole joint. He also pointed out that he was only one vote on Wal-
Mart's real estate committee and could be overruled. Nevertheless, New
York's politicians and union leaders were beside themselves with glee
at the Times pronouncement. "We don't miss them," said Edward Ott,
executive director of the New York City Central Labor council. "We
have great supermarkets... we don't need Wal-Mart."

I don't know where Ott shops. New York City has some of the worst
grocery stores in the country, hands down. In the rest of America,
they build supermarkets the size of convention centers, and fill them
with every kind of soup Campbell's ever made and all of Heinz's 57
varieties. In the city, ours are the size of subway cars, filled with
the same kind of really angry people trying to squeeze their carts
past one another so they can buy 28 oz. of peanut butter for $6.
Selection? Ha. We get chicken noodle and tomato soup, and two sizes of
ketchup. Certainly there are the fancy food shops where you can buy
one orange for $2 and get incredible cheese and real Italian salami
imported from Genoa that costs $4.99 - for a quarter of a pound.

But Ott was hardly alone. There was also inane councilwoman Gale
Brewer proclaiming victory over the terrible jobs Wal-Mart might bring
to her Upper West Side district, so overrun with economic development
that she can apparently turn companies away. Perhaps she's waiting for
a Toyota plant. Brewer helps run a city where rookie cops earn $25,000
a year. On an hourly basis, that's barely above what Wal-Mart is
paying in its Secaucus, N.J., store. Maybe the cops can get a second
job to make ends meet, since they can't afford to live in the city
they protect. The same city where sweatshops thrive in Chinatown,
immigrant Mexican help has been grossly underpaid by immigrant Korean
deli owners, and immigrant African deliverymen had been getting $1.25
per hour at unionized Manhattan supermarkets (relying on tips) until
authorities finally stepped in. "Wal-Mart's values are not New York's
values," proclaimed Stuart Appelbaum, president of the Retail,
Wholesale and Department Store Union/UFCW. You got that right. Wal-
Mart's regulations stipulate that every employee be paid for every
minute worked. (Enforcement, obviously, is another issue.)

The unions have got their walled-city approach wrong. Here's the UFCW,
which has been losing membership at a steady pace, turning down a
historic opportunity. You can't organize stores that don't exist, Stu.
Supermarkets have been pulling out of the city, not moving in, given
the high costs and the competition from retail banks for the store
space. And Wal-Mart has kicked the UFCW's ass all over the country -
there's not a single union Wal-Mart store anywhere. Whatsa matter,
Stu, you don't got game for those hicks from Arkansas? This is a union
town. New York's cops, firefighters, sanitation workers, teachers, bus
and subway employees are all organized. So are its actors, hotels,
restaurants and construction workers. As well as the media, including
the lefty Times and the righty Post, not to mention TIME, and all the
television networks (including the anchors). The major exception is
the Dean and Deluca liberals at the New Yorker. But who needs them
when you've got the brickies? The unions should be welcoming Wal-Mart
and then getting busy. Don't gloat. Organize.

[George Conklin]

Post by Pat
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1605388,00.html
Wal-Mart: Please Come to New York!
When Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott told the New York Times earlier this week
that he was finished trying to build stores in New York City, one of
his aides was quick to point out that he was only referring to
Manhattan, where ground-floor space rents for about $500 a square
foot, and not the city's other four boroughs. But when I talked to
Scott the next day, he assured me that he said what he meant. The
whole joint. He also pointed out that he was only one vote on Wal-
Mart's real estate committee and could be overruled. Nevertheless, New
York's politicians and union leaders were beside themselves with glee
at the Times pronouncement. "We don't miss them," said Edward Ott,
executive director of the New York City Central Labor council. "We
have great supermarkets... we don't need Wal-Mart."
I don't know where Ott shops. New York City has some of the worst
grocery stores in the country, hands down. In the rest of America,
they build supermarkets the size of convention centers, and fill them
with every kind of soup Campbell's ever made and all of Heinz's 57
varieties. In the city, ours are the size of subway cars, filled with
the same kind of really angry people trying to squeeze their carts
past one another so they can buy 28 oz. of peanut butter for $6.
Selection? Ha. We get chicken noodle and tomato soup, and two sizes of
ketchup. Certainly there are the fancy food shops where you can buy
one orange for $2 and get incredible cheese and real Italian salami
imported from Genoa that costs $4.99 - for a quarter of a pound.
But Ott was hardly alone. There was also inane councilwoman Gale
Brewer proclaiming victory over the terrible jobs Wal-Mart might bring
to her Upper West Side district, so overrun with economic development
that she can apparently turn companies away. Perhaps she's waiting for
a Toyota plant. Brewer helps run a city where rookie cops earn $25,000
a year. On an hourly basis, that's barely above what Wal-Mart is
paying in its Secaucus, N.J., store. Maybe the cops can get a second
job to make ends meet, since they can't afford to live in the city
they protect. The same city where sweatshops thrive in Chinatown,
immigrant Mexican help has been grossly underpaid by immigrant Korean
deli owners, and immigrant African deliverymen had been getting $1.25
per hour at unionized Manhattan supermarkets (relying on tips) until
authorities finally stepped in. "Wal-Mart's values are not New York's
values," proclaimed Stuart Appelbaum, president of the Retail,
Wholesale and Department Store Union/UFCW. You got that right. Wal-
Mart's regulations stipulate that every employee be paid for every
minute worked. (Enforcement, obviously, is another issue.)
The unions have got their walled-city approach wrong. Here's the UFCW,
which has been losing membership at a steady pace, turning down a
historic opportunity. You can't organize stores that don't exist, Stu.
Supermarkets have been pulling out of the city, not moving in, given
the high costs and the competition from retail banks for the store
space. And Wal-Mart has kicked the UFCW's ass all over the country -
there's not a single union Wal-Mart store anywhere. Whatsa matter,
Stu, you don't got game for those hicks from Arkansas? This is a union
town. New York's cops, firefighters, sanitation workers, teachers, bus
and subway employees are all organized. So are its actors, hotels,
restaurants and construction workers. As well as the media, including
the lefty Times and the righty Post, not to mention TIME, and all the
television networks (including the anchors). The major exception is
the Dean and Deluca liberals at the New Yorker. But who needs them
when you've got the brickies? The unions should be welcoming Wal-Mart
and then getting busy. Don't gloat. Organize.

Interesting comment. I know that the small stores have almost no selection
and high prices. Been there. Done that. You don't want it!!!

[Pat]

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1605388,00.html
Wal-Mart: Please Come to New York!
When Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott told the New York Times earlier this week
that he was finished trying to build stores in New York City, one of
his aides was quick to point out that he was only referring to
Manhattan, where ground-floor space rents for about $500 a square
foot, and not the city's other four boroughs. But when I talked to
Scott the next day, he assured me that he said what he meant. The
whole joint. He also pointed out that he was only one vote on Wal-
Mart's real estate committee and could be overruled. Nevertheless, New
York's politicians and union leaders were beside themselves with glee
at the Times pronouncement. "We don't miss them," said Edward Ott,
executive director of the New York City Central Labor council. "We
have great supermarkets... we don't need Wal-Mart."
I don't know where Ott shops. New York City has some of the worst
grocery stores in the country, hands down. In the rest of America,
they build supermarkets the size of convention centers, and fill them
with every kind of soup Campbell's ever made and all of Heinz's 57
varieties. In the city, ours are the size of subway cars, filled with
the same kind of really angry people trying to squeeze their carts
past one another so they can buy 28 oz. of peanut butter for $6.
Selection? Ha. We get chicken noodle and tomato soup, and two sizes of
ketchup. Certainly there are the fancy food shops where you can buy
one orange for $2 and get incredible cheese and real Italian salami
imported from Genoa that costs $4.99 - for a quarter of a pound.
But Ott was hardly alone. There was also inane councilwoman Gale
Brewer proclaiming victory over the terrible jobs Wal-Mart might bring
to her Upper West Side district, so overrun with economic development
that she can apparently turn companies away. Perhaps she's waiting for
a Toyota plant. Brewer helps run a city where rookie cops earn $25,000
a year. On an hourly basis, that's barely above what Wal-Mart is
paying in its Secaucus, N.J., store. Maybe the cops can get a second
job to make ends meet, since they can't afford to live in the city
they protect. The same city where sweatshops thrive in Chinatown,
immigrant Mexican help has been grossly underpaid by immigrant Korean
deli owners, and immigrant African deliverymen had been getting $1.25
per hour at unionized Manhattan supermarkets (relying on tips) until
authorities finally stepped in. "Wal-Mart's values are not New York's
values," proclaimed Stuart Appelbaum, president of the Retail,
Wholesale and Department Store Union/UFCW. You got that right. Wal-
Mart's regulations stipulate that every employee be paid for every
minute worked. (Enforcement, obviously, is another issue.)
The unions have got their walled-city approach wrong. Here's the UFCW,
which has been losing membership at a steady pace, turning down a
historic opportunity. You can't organize stores that don't exist, Stu.
Supermarkets have been pulling out of the city, not moving in, given
the high costs and the competition from retail banks for the store
space. And Wal-Mart has kicked the UFCW's ass all over the country -
there's not a single union Wal-Mart store anywhere. Whatsa matter,
Stu, you don't got game for those hicks from Arkansas? This is a union
town. New York's cops, firefighters, sanitation workers, teachers, bus
and subway employees are all organized. So are its actors, hotels,
restaurants and construction workers. As well as the media, including
the lefty Times and the righty Post, not to mention TIME, and all the
television networks (including the anchors). The major exception is
the Dean and Deluca liberals at the New Yorker. But who needs them
when you've got the brickies? The unions should be welcoming Wal-Mart
and then getting busy. Don't gloat. Organize.

Interesting comment. I know that the small stores have almost no selection
and high prices. Been there. Done that. You don't want it!!!

We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

[George Conklin]

Post by Pat

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1605388,00.html
Wal-Mart: Please Come to New York!
When Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott told the New York Times earlier this week
that he was finished trying to build stores in New York City, one of
his aides was quick to point out that he was only referring to
Manhattan, where ground-floor space rents for about $500 a square
foot, and not the city's other four boroughs. But when I talked to
Scott the next day, he assured me that he said what he meant. The
whole joint. He also pointed out that he was only one vote on Wal-
Mart's real estate committee and could be overruled. Nevertheless, New
York's politicians and union leaders were beside themselves with glee
at the Times pronouncement. "We don't miss them," said Edward Ott,
executive director of the New York City Central Labor council. "We
have great supermarkets... we don't need Wal-Mart."
I don't know where Ott shops. New York City has some of the worst
grocery stores in the country, hands down. In the rest of America,
they build supermarkets the size of convention centers, and fill them
with every kind of soup Campbell's ever made and all of Heinz's 57
varieties. In the city, ours are the size of subway cars, filled with
the same kind of really angry people trying to squeeze their carts
past one another so they can buy 28 oz. of peanut butter for $6.
Selection? Ha. We get chicken noodle and tomato soup, and two sizes of
ketchup. Certainly there are the fancy food shops where you can buy
one orange for $2 and get incredible cheese and real Italian salami
imported from Genoa that costs $4.99 - for a quarter of a pound.
But Ott was hardly alone. There was also inane councilwoman Gale
Brewer proclaiming victory over the terrible jobs Wal-Mart might bring
to her Upper West Side district, so overrun with economic development
that she can apparently turn companies away. Perhaps she's waiting for
a Toyota plant. Brewer helps run a city where rookie cops earn $25,000
a year. On an hourly basis, that's barely above what Wal-Mart is
paying in its Secaucus, N.J., store. Maybe the cops can get a second
job to make ends meet, since they can't afford to live in the city
they protect. The same city where sweatshops thrive in Chinatown,
immigrant Mexican help has been grossly underpaid by immigrant Korean
deli owners, and immigrant African deliverymen had been getting $1.25
per hour at unionized Manhattan supermarkets (relying on tips) until
authorities finally stepped in. "Wal-Mart's values are not New York's
values," proclaimed Stuart Appelbaum, president of the Retail,
Wholesale and Department Store Union/UFCW. You got that right. Wal-
Mart's regulations stipulate that every employee be paid for every
minute worked. (Enforcement, obviously, is another issue.)
The unions have got their walled-city approach wrong. Here's the UFCW,
which has been losing membership at a steady pace, turning down a
historic opportunity. You can't organize stores that don't exist, Stu.
Supermarkets have been pulling out of the city, not moving in, given
the high costs and the competition from retail banks for the store
space. And Wal-Mart has kicked the UFCW's ass all over the country -
there's not a single union Wal-Mart store anywhere. Whatsa matter,
Stu, you don't got game for those hicks from Arkansas? This is a union
town. New York's cops, firefighters, sanitation workers, teachers, bus
and subway employees are all organized. So are its actors, hotels,
restaurants and construction workers. As well as the media, including
the lefty Times and the righty Post, not to mention TIME, and all the
television networks (including the anchors). The major exception is
the Dean and Deluca liberals at the New Yorker. But who needs them
when you've got the brickies? The unions should be welcoming Wal-Mart
and then getting busy. Don't gloat. Organize.

Interesting comment. I know that the small stores have almost no selection
and high prices. Been there. Done that. You don't want it!!!

We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used to
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had the
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets were not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when Wal-Mart
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

[Amy Blankenship]

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used to
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had the
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets were not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when Wal-Mart
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

[Pat]

On Apr 1, 9:02 pm, "Amy Blankenship"

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used to
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had the
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets were not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when Wal-Mart
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

I don't get the whole concept of Farmers Markets at least as they are
around here. They have not-so-great, over priced stuff where they
stand around for most of the day with not-so-many customers. But they
are almost every town. The farmers can't be making a living on the
markets. I think they are an elaborate food-stamp scheme. The food
stamp people give out extra "vouchers" or some such thing that can
only be used at the markets as some way of providing supposidly
fresher foods and supporting the farmers. The farmers know that the
people can only spend the "money" at the market so they don't have to
worry too much about quality. The people get the food for free so
they don't complain too much about quality. And so it goes ....

[George Conklin]

Post by Pat
On Apr 1, 9:02 pm, "Amy Blankenship"

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used to
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had the
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets

were

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when Wal-Mart
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

I don't get the whole concept of Farmers Markets at least as they are
around here. They have not-so-great, over priced stuff where they
stand around for most of the day with not-so-many customers. But they
are almost every town. The farmers can't be making a living on the
markets. I think they are an elaborate food-stamp scheme. The food
stamp people give out extra "vouchers" or some such thing that can
only be used at the markets as some way of providing supposidly
fresher foods and supporting the farmers. The farmers know that the
people can only spend the "money" at the market so they don't have to
worry too much about quality. The people get the food for free so
they don't complain too much about quality. And so it goes ....

Our local farmers market in Raleigh has inspectors trying to 'prove' that
what is sold is grown locally and not shipped!!! Apparently the farmers are
prone to cheating. For canning each year, we try to buy in bulk at the peak
of the season from local farmers, but this is hard to do. With several
acres of an old farm we own, we are able to pick and can 40 quarts of
blackberries and make cider from an old heritage apple tree. It takes all
day to get about 7 gallons of cider, making our labor worth about $2 an
hour, not counting the 'investment' of $200 in an apple picking triangular
ladder. My wife likes to can pears and peaches, which are excellent, and
we can tomatoes if someone gives us a bunch. But we do it for flavor since
it costs more than the commercial variety. Just try to find rings for the
old canning jars!!! Ball won't sell them, so we have to get them from
Canada.

[Pat]

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
On Apr 1, 9:02 pm, "Amy Blankenship"

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used

to

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had

the

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets

were

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when

Wal-Mart

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

I don't get the whole concept of Farmers Markets at least as they are
around here. They have not-so-great, over priced stuff where they
stand around for most of the day with not-so-many customers. But they
are almost every town. The farmers can't be making a living on the
markets. I think they are an elaborate food-stamp scheme. The food
stamp people give out extra "vouchers" or some such thing that can
only be used at the markets as some way of providing supposidly
fresher foods and supporting the farmers. The farmers know that the
people can only spend the "money" at the market so they don't have to
worry too much about quality. The people get the food for free so
they don't complain too much about quality. And so it goes ....

Our local farmers market in Raleigh has inspectors trying to 'prove' that
what is sold is grown locally and not shipped!!! Apparently the farmers are
prone to cheating. For canning each year, we try to buy in bulk at the peak
of the season from local farmers, but this is hard to do. With several
acres of an old farm we own, we are able to pick and can 40 quarts of
blackberries and make cider from an old heritage apple tree. It takes all
day to get about 7 gallons of cider, making our labor worth about $2 an
hour, not counting the 'investment' of $200 in an apple picking triangular
ladder. My wife likes to can pears and peaches, which are excellent, and
we can tomatoes if someone gives us a bunch. But we do it for flavor since
it costs more than the commercial variety. Just try to find rings for the
old canning jars!!! Ball won't sell them, so we have to get them from
Canada.

I think we can still get rings here -- at least we could last time I
checked. Fortunately, they are reusable and reusable and reusable.
So if you need more, let me know in canning season cause I think we
still have then ... hey, but wait a minute, we're ALMOST in Canada.
Only 50 miles or so....

BTW, you know that as soon as the dimple pulls in as the can cools,
you can take the ring off and reuse it again immediately. You
shouldn't store the cans with the rings on.

[George Conklin]

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
On Apr 1, 9:02 pm, "Amy Blankenship"

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

On Mar 31, 7:20 am, "George Conklin"
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used

to

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had

the

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets

were

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when

Wal-Mart

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for

stores,

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

I don't get the whole concept of Farmers Markets at least as they are
around here. They have not-so-great, over priced stuff where they
stand around for most of the day with not-so-many customers. But they
are almost every town. The farmers can't be making a living on the
markets. I think they are an elaborate food-stamp scheme. The food
stamp people give out extra "vouchers" or some such thing that can
only be used at the markets as some way of providing supposidly
fresher foods and supporting the farmers. The farmers know that the
people can only spend the "money" at the market so they don't have to
worry too much about quality. The people get the food for free so
they don't complain too much about quality. And so it goes ....

Our local farmers market in Raleigh has inspectors trying to 'prove' that
what is sold is grown locally and not shipped!!! Apparently the farmers are
prone to cheating. For canning each year, we try to buy in bulk at the peak
of the season from local farmers, but this is hard to do. With several
acres of an old farm we own, we are able to pick and can 40 quarts of
blackberries and make cider from an old heritage apple tree. It takes all
day to get about 7 gallons of cider, making our labor worth about $2 an
hour, not counting the 'investment' of $200 in an apple picking triangular
ladder. My wife likes to can pears and peaches, which are excellent, and
we can tomatoes if someone gives us a bunch. But we do it for flavor since
it costs more than the commercial variety. Just try to find rings for the
old canning jars!!! Ball won't sell them, so we have to get them from
Canada.

I think we can still get rings here -- at least we could last time I
checked. Fortunately, they are reusable and reusable and reusable.
So if you need more, let me know in canning season cause I think we
still have then ... hey, but wait a minute, we're ALMOST in Canada.
Only 50 miles or so....

The rubber rings are not the metal tops. They are for the old snap lid
glass jars and they cannot be reused.

Post by Pat
BTW, you know that as soon as the dimple pulls in as the can cools,
you can take the ring off and reuse it again immediately. You
shouldn't store the cans with the rings on.

The rubber rings are just rubber. You are thinking of the new-style
canning jars, not the old ones. We use them too, but for pickes they tend
to rust through.

[Pat]

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
On Apr 1, 9:02 pm, "Amy Blankenship"

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

On Mar 31, 7:20 am, "George Conklin"
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a

Save-A-Lot

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people

from

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but

WOW

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods

and

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting

selection

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a

great

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted,

you

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been

used

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
to

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities

had

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
the

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets

were

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when

Wal-Mart

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for

stores,

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

I don't get the whole concept of Farmers Markets at least as they are
around here. They have not-so-great, over priced stuff where they
stand around for most of the day with not-so-many customers. But they
are almost every town. The farmers can't be making a living on the
markets. I think they are an elaborate food-stamp scheme. The food
stamp people give out extra "vouchers" or some such thing that can
only be used at the markets as some way of providing supposidly
fresher foods and supporting the farmers. The farmers know that the
people can only spend the "money" at the market so they don't have to
worry too much about quality. The people get the food for free so
they don't complain too much about quality. And so it goes ....

Our local farmers market in Raleigh has inspectors trying to 'prove'

that

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
what is sold is grown locally and not shipped!!! Apparently the farmers

are

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
prone to cheating. For canning each year, we try to buy in bulk at the

peak

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
of the season from local farmers, but this is hard to do. With several
acres of an old farm we own, we are able to pick and can 40 quarts of
blackberries and make cider from an old heritage apple tree. It takes

all

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
day to get about 7 gallons of cider, making our labor worth about $2 an
hour, not counting the 'investment' of $200 in an apple picking

triangular

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
ladder. My wife likes to can pears and peaches, which are excellent,

and

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
we can tomatoes if someone gives us a bunch. But we do it for flavor

since

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
it costs more than the commercial variety. Just try to find rings for

the

Post by Pat

Post by Pat
old canning jars!!! Ball won't sell them, so we have to get them from
Canada.

I think we can still get rings here -- at least we could last time I
checked. Fortunately, they are reusable and reusable and reusable.
So if you need more, let me know in canning season cause I think we
still have then ... hey, but wait a minute, we're ALMOST in Canada.
Only 50 miles or so....

The rubber rings are not the metal tops. They are for the old snap lid
glass jars and they cannot be reused.

Post by Pat
BTW, you know that as soon as the dimple pulls in as the can cools,
you can take the ring off and reuse it again immediately. You
shouldn't store the cans with the rings on.

The rubber rings are just rubber. You are thinking of the new-style
canning jars, not the old ones. We use them too, but for pickes they tend
to rust through.

Ahhh. You use rubbers for your pickle. Sounds lewd.

You might want to check over in misc.rural and ask over there.

[Amy Blankenship]

Post by Pat
On Apr 1, 9:02 pm, "Amy Blankenship"

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used to
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had the
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets were not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when Wal-Mart
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

I don't get the whole concept of Farmers Markets at least as they are
around here. They have not-so-great, over priced stuff where they
stand around for most of the day with not-so-many customers. But they
are almost every town. The farmers can't be making a living on the
markets. I think they are an elaborate food-stamp scheme. The food
stamp people give out extra "vouchers" or some such thing that can
only be used at the markets as some way of providing supposidly
fresher foods and supporting the farmers. The farmers know that the
people can only spend the "money" at the market so they don't have to
worry too much about quality. The people get the food for free so
they don't complain too much about quality. And so it goes ....

It's something like $20 per household per year. Hardly enough to keep a
farmers market going.

[Clark F Morris]

Post by Pat
On Apr 1, 9:02 pm, "Amy Blankenship"

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used to
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had the
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets were not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when Wal-Mart
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

I don't get the whole concept of Farmers Markets at least as they are
around here. They have not-so-great, over priced stuff where they
stand around for most of the day with not-so-many customers. But they
are almost every town. The farmers can't be making a living on the
markets. I think they are an elaborate food-stamp scheme. The food
stamp people give out extra "vouchers" or some such thing that can
only be used at the markets as some way of providing supposidly
fresher foods and supporting the farmers. The farmers know that the
people can only spend the "money" at the market so they don't have to
worry too much about quality. The people get the food for free so
they don't complain too much about quality. And so it goes ....

If you are ever in Nova Scotia during the summer on Saturday's, try
the farmers markets in Annapolis Royal and Halifax. They definitely
are well patronized and my wife and I know some of the farmers at the
one in Annapolis Royal. We definitely find the produce to be good.

[George Conklin]

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used to
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had the
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets were not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when Wal-Mart
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

We shop at farmers' markets.

[Amy Blankenship]

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used

to

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had the
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets were not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when

Wal-Mart

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

We shop at farmers' markets.

Then why are you so against them, and the farmers who sell their produce
there?

[George Conklin]

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin

Post by Pat
We have two grocery stores in town. A "regular" one and a Save-A-Lot
which is sort of like an Aldi's. I just happen to be in the next
place north, which is a resort town that draws lots of people from
Ontario and Ohio. And obviously it is a more affluent group of
people. I had to run in to their store, which isn't very big but WOW
what an interesting selection. They minimized their cans goods and
went heavy into fresh veggies, exotic cheeses, interesting selection
of frozen stuff. It was interesting because it was really a great
example of tayloring the store to suit the market. But granted, you
need a fairly large store to do that.

Part of the problem with NYC and Wal-Mart is that zoning has been used

to

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
exclude competition. All the way back to Medieval times, cities had the
right for a market, but rural areas did NOT. Thus farmers markets

were

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by Pat

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
not
near the farm, but in cities. That is true to this day. So when

Wal-Mart

Post by Amy Blankenship

Post by George Conklin
came in with the idea that the rural areas were the place for stores, cities
had fits. Urban planners wet themselves in fear. They still do.

You wet yourself in fear of farmer's markets, so that's fair...

We shop at farmers' markets.

Then why are you so against them, and the farmers who sell their produce
there?

Who is against them? I just don't think urban counties need tax-supported
horse farms.

[drydem]

Post by Pat
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1605388,00.html
Wal-Mart: Please Come to New York!
When Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott told the New York Times earlier this week
that he was finished trying to build stores in New York City, one of
his aides was quick to point out that he was only referring to
Manhattan, where ground-floor space rents for about $500 a square
foot, and not the city's other four boroughs. But when I talked to
Scott the next day, he assured me that he said what he meant. The
whole joint. He also pointed out that he was only one vote on Wal-
Mart's real estate committee and could be overruled. Nevertheless, New
York's politicians and union leaders were beside themselves with glee
at the Times pronouncement. "We don't miss them," said Edward Ott,
executive director of the New York City Central Labor council. "We
have great supermarkets... we don't need Wal-Mart."

During 9/11 the streets to Manhatten were shutdown. This
extended blockade that followed 9/11 prevented commerical
vehicles from reaching businesses and factories in downtown
Manhatten - that in turn I heard had caused many businesses
there to relocated out of NYC.

[JG]

Post by Pat
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1605388,00.html
Wal-Mart: Please Come to New York!
When Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott told the New York Times earlier this week
that he was finished trying to build stores in New York City, one of
his aides was quick to point out that he was only referring to
Manhattan, where ground-floor space rents for about $500 a square
foot, and not the city's other four boroughs. But when I talked to
Scott the next day, he assured me that he said what he meant. The
whole joint. He also pointed out that he was only one vote on Wal-
Mart's real estate committee and could be overruled. Nevertheless, New
York's politicians and union leaders were beside themselves with glee
at the Times pronouncement. "We don't miss them," said Edward Ott,
executive director of the New York City Central Labor council. "We
have great supermarkets... we don't need Wal-Mart."
I don't know where Ott shops. New York City has some of the worst
grocery stores in the country, hands down. In the rest of America,
they build supermarkets the size of convention centers, and fill them
with every kind of soup Campbell's ever made and all of Heinz's 57
varieties. In the city, ours are the size of subway cars, filled with
the same kind of really angry people trying to squeeze their carts
past one another so they can buy 28 oz. of peanut butter for $6.
Selection? Ha. We get chicken noodle and tomato soup, and two sizes of
ketchup. Certainly there are the fancy food shops where you can buy
one orange for $2 and get incredible cheese and real Italian salami
imported from Genoa that costs $4.99 - for a quarter of a pound.
But Ott was hardly alone. There was also inane councilwoman Gale
Brewer proclaiming victory over the terrible jobs Wal-Mart might bring
to her Upper West Side district, so overrun with economic development
that she can apparently turn companies away. Perhaps she's waiting for
a Toyota plant. Brewer helps run a city where rookie cops earn $25,000
a year. On an hourly basis, that's barely above what Wal-Mart is
paying in its Secaucus, N.J., store. Maybe the cops can get a second
job to make ends meet, since they can't afford to live in the city
they protect. The same city where sweatshops thrive in Chinatown,
immigrant Mexican help has been grossly underpaid by immigrant Korean
deli owners, and immigrant African deliverymen had been getting $1.25
per hour at unionized Manhattan supermarkets (relying on tips) until
authorities finally stepped in. "Wal-Mart's values are not New York's
values," proclaimed Stuart Appelbaum, president of the Retail,
Wholesale and Department Store Union/UFCW. You got that right. Wal-
Mart's regulations stipulate that every employee be paid for every
minute worked. (Enforcement, obviously, is another issue.)
The unions have got their walled-city approach wrong. Here's the UFCW,
which has been losing membership at a steady pace, turning down a
historic opportunity. You can't organize stores that don't exist, Stu.
Supermarkets have been pulling out of the city, not moving in, given
the high costs and the competition from retail banks for the store
space. And Wal-Mart has kicked the UFCW's ass all over the country -
there's not a single union Wal-Mart store anywhere. Whatsa matter,
Stu, you don't got game for those hicks from Arkansas? This is a union
town. New York's cops, firefighters, sanitation workers, teachers, bus
and subway employees are all organized. So are its actors, hotels,
restaurants and construction workers. As well as the media, including
the lefty Times and the righty Post, not to mention TIME, and all the
television networks (including the anchors). The major exception is
the Dean and Deluca liberals at the New Yorker. But who needs them
when you've got the brickies? The unions should be welcoming Wal-Mart
and then getting busy. Don't gloat. Organize.

Somehow K-mart could build a Manhattan store without the standard
extortion subsidies that Mao-mart demands. Oh, NYCers don't cook, they
order in, silly..JG