Discussion:
California Chapter American Planning Association
(too old to reply)
Jack May
2007-10-09 19:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Six people debate if California is prepared to change the way it grows. 150
planners were there and don't think California will change. Following are
some comments from a reporter that was the moderator of the debate.

--------------

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/09/DDJDSJVUJ.DTL
--Bad news: Unless the experts are wrong, California suburbs will continue
to sprawl beyond the horizon.

The threat of global warming pales next to the allure of a backyard sliver
of green. Two-hour commutes are tough, but it's even tougher to persuade an
older suburb to allow dense new housing downtown.

Am I being cynical? No. I'm passing along the verdict of 150 professional
planners after they watched six of their peers debate whether or not our
state is prepared to change the way it grows.

"California was built for the car," jousted Marjorie Macris, one of the
three skeptics on the panel. "Retrofitting it to look like Switzerland will
be extremely difficult."

The debate occurred last week in San Jose during the annual conference of
the California chapter of the American Planning Association. And it truly
was a debate; the two teams jabbed within a tight time frame over the topic:
"Resolved, that California is ready for complex urban development."

--This isn't an arcane topic: California's population is now 36 million, and
demographers expect us to hit 59 million by 2032. If we follow the mold of
the past 50 years, most of those folks will be housed in single-family homes
in suburban tracts, more and more of them tucked behind sound walls or
gates.

--"We have no other choice, and we are ready," argued Al Zelinka of RBF
Consulting in Irvine. He talked of how Orange County has downtown housing
and condo towers taking root. "Green" buildings now are touted by developers
and demanded by governments. "We're at the tipping point. ...
Suburbanization will continue, but the wave will be in urbanization."

One of Zelinka's allies touted regulations that would use such lures as cash
bonuses for transit-friendly housing to move development in a more compact
direction.

"The limits of suburban development have been reached," argued Steve Lawton,
community development director for Hercules and the organizer of the debate.
"This state can turn on a dime when it has the will and policy inclination
to do so."

--The con side nodded politely and then bore in. Its argument: Get real!
California is too large and contentious for plannerly visions to make much
of a mark.

"It's spectacular delusional hubris to think that good sense will prevail,"
proclaimed developer John Anderson of Chico. "People feel entitled to their
fantasy."

--"I've seen the problems. I just don't think we're ready to solve them,"
argued David Sargent of the Pasadena design firm Moule + Polyzoides. He
emphasized the lack of strong regional governments. Another problem: an
environmental process that can be used to kill projects that neighbors don't
want, even though banning growth in an established community can cause it to
move to farmland or hillsides on the outskirts instead.

--At the end, I asked the crowd to vote one way or the other. The cons had
it - by a landslide. In a logical world shaped by what the mass of people
want, we'd have communities with more housing options and a convenient range
of transportation alternatives. Many young adults today aren't in a hurry to
settle down in a cul-de-sac - and many of their parents would love to sell
their home on the cul-de-sac but still live in the suburbs close to their
friends.

But the real world is a local political stew where the loudest voices are
the ones who want the status quo preserved at all cost. Statewide planning
regulations, meanwhile, look great in press releases but often are
disconnected from daily life.
george conklin
2007-10-09 21:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
Six people debate if California is prepared to change the way it grows.
150 planners were there and don't think California will change.
Following are some comments from a reporter that was the moderator of the
debate.
--------------
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/09/DDJDSJVUJ.DTL
"California was built for the car," jousted Marjorie Macris, one of the
three skeptics on the panel. "Retrofitting it to look like Switzerland
will be extremely difficult."
Yes, as I have always posted, planners think that if it is done in
Europe, it is best. I don't know why they don't move there.
Jack May
2007-10-10 00:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by george conklin
Post by Jack May
Six people debate if California is prepared to change the way it grows.
150 planners were there and don't think California will change. Following
are some comments from a reporter that was the moderator of the debate.
--------------
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/09/DDJDSJVUJ.DTL
"California was built for the car," jousted Marjorie Macris, one of the
three skeptics on the panel. "Retrofitting it to look like Switzerland
will be extremely difficult."
Yes, as I have always posted, planners think that if it is done in
Europe, it is best. I don't know why they don't move there.
I actually had one rabid transit supporter that we have to follow Europe
because they are smarter than we are. This was in a conversation when we
were standing inside of Silicon Valley in an organization that represents
companies in Silicon Valley.

Transit supporters can very weird at times.
Amy Blankenship
2007-10-10 00:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
--At the end, I asked the crowd to vote one way or the other. The cons had
it - by a landslide. In a logical world shaped by what the mass of people
want...
People don't want what is logical. That's like thinking people might start
deciding what type of person might be the best life partner and then seek
out that type of mate rather than go bar-hopping.
Pat
2007-10-10 03:09:36 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 9, 8:25 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
--At the end, I asked the crowd to vote one way or the other. The cons had
it - by a landslide. In a logical world shaped by what the mass of people
want...
People don't want what is logical. That's like thinking people might start
deciding what type of person might be the best life partner and then seek
out that type of mate rather than go bar-hopping.
I thought that whole "seeking out the best life partner" was called E-
Harmony.

I thought that seeking out the "most fun" partner was called bar
hopping.
george conklin
2007-10-10 10:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
On Oct 9, 8:25 pm, "Amy Blankenship"
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
--At the end, I asked the crowd to vote one way or the other. The cons had
it - by a landslide. In a logical world shaped by what the mass of people
want...
People don't want what is logical. That's like thinking people might start
deciding what type of person might be the best life partner and then seek
out that type of mate rather than go bar-hopping.
I thought that whole "seeking out the best life partner" was called E-
Harmony.
I thought that seeking out the "most fun" partner was called bar
hopping.
There are many theories of finding a happy mate. E-harmony is based on
finding people who are alike, not complementary.
Jack May
2007-10-10 03:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
--At the end, I asked the crowd to vote one way or the other. The cons
had it - by a landslide. In a logical world shaped by what the mass of
people want...
People don't want what is logical. That's like thinking people might
start deciding what type of person might be the best life partner and then
seek out that type of mate rather than go bar-hopping.
Going back to replicating the 19th century with rail, TODs, and tenement
type housing is extremely irrational usually wanted by people that have no
imagination, no understanding of technology and no capability to solve
problems.

That approach is a guaranteed failure. There is no future in the past.

That may be why the planners overwhelming rejected the people that wanted go
down such a path of incompetence.

BTW, it looks like life partners are best chosen by smell even though the
people are unaware that they are smelling anything. The smell transmits DNA
information which people somehow characterize which research has shown
appears to be a good technique for determining a good match.

Maybe bar hopping is actually a good search process after all. Apparently
when we totally lose control and fall deeply, madly in love, it is driven by
a good match between the DNA clues in the smell of each other.

There is evidence for this though I don't know how solid the research is.
Amy Blankenship
2007-10-10 04:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
--At the end, I asked the crowd to vote one way or the other. The cons
had it - by a landslide. In a logical world shaped by what the mass of
people want...
People don't want what is logical. That's like thinking people might
start deciding what type of person might be the best life partner and
then seek out that type of mate rather than go bar-hopping.
Going back to replicating the 19th century with rail, TODs, and tenement
type housing is extremely irrational usually wanted by people that have no
imagination, no understanding of technology and no capability to solve
problems.
Or, possibly they have way more imagination and can see things you can't.
Post by Jack May
That approach is a guaranteed failure. There is no future in the past.
For one thing, cars and miles of pavements aren't any newer technology than
say diesel train engines. For another, we have to backtrack all the time
when we realize that rushing in where angels fear to tread isn't necessarily
wise in every instance. Please review the thread on antibiotic resistance.
Your childlike trust in the latest technology went out of vogue in the
fifties, speaking of living in the past.
Post by Jack May
That may be why the planners overwhelming rejected the people that wanted
go down such a path of incompetence.
BTW, it looks like life partners are best chosen by smell even though the
people are unaware that they are smelling anything. The smell transmits
DNA information which people somehow characterize which research has shown
appears to be a good technique for determining a good match.
Considering how many people are on their second or third marriages, I think
you're mistaken there.

-Amy
Post by Jack May
Maybe bar hopping is actually a good search process after all. Apparently
when we totally lose control and fall deeply, madly in love, it is driven
by a good match between the DNA clues in the smell of each other.
There is evidence for this though I don't know how solid the research is.
Jack May
2007-10-10 23:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
Going back to replicating the 19th century with rail, TODs, and tenement
type housing is extremely irrational usually wanted by people that have
no imagination, no understanding of technology and no capability to solve
problems.
Or, possibly they have way more imagination and can see things you can't.
No! We have lots of historical data on how technology evolution works.
This is not some guess. You obviously have no understanding of how society
evolves over time.

People rejected rail transit and tenements for reason. People have not
changed except their real income has gone way up and transit is therefore
more expensive in time than when people previously rejected. Rail transit
has been thoroughly rejected in the present because very few people can
afford it time cost.

High time cost is why pushing for transit, TODs, and tenement like densities
is extremely irrational. There is no basis to try that approach and lot of
history why it won't work and just be another very expensive failure.

We know from research that people that hang on to the past are in the bottom
of society, have almost no capability to accomplish much of anything, show
no imagination, and just believe in clichés they don't even understand. I
meet these people at transportation planning meeting and am astounded how
stupid and unimaginative they are.
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
That approach is a guaranteed failure. There is no future in the past.
For one thing, cars and miles of pavements aren't any newer technology
than say diesel train engines. For another, we have to backtrack all the
time when we realize that rushing in where angels fear to tread isn't
necessarily wise in every instance. Please review the thread on
antibiotic resistance. Your childlike trust in the latest technology went
out of vogue in the fifties, speaking of living in the past.
Now you are showing your ignorance of technology and society evolution.
You even do the usual ploy those ignorant of history by trying to isolate it
down to one component, the engine, when it is the overall transportation
system characteristics that determines technological evolution.

Let me repeat my URL that shows rail peaked a century ago, car and roads
much later. The next big technology peak in transportation appears with
high certainty to be use of technology to solve the problems of roads and
cars. That is not shown in the graph but rather a hair brain Maglev guess.

http://phe.rockefeller.edu/TIP_transport/transport.pdf

People hated dense tenements at the turn of the last century and they are
highly unlikely to suddenly want to live that way again. We have zero
examples, outside of religious cults, of technology evolution ever reversing
and going back to the past. There is no chance that returning to the past
with rail, TODs, and tenements will be the first to be totally different
from all past history.
Amy Blankenship
2007-10-10 23:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
Going back to replicating the 19th century with rail, TODs, and tenement
type housing is extremely irrational usually wanted by people that have
no imagination, no understanding of technology and no capability to
solve problems.
Or, possibly they have way more imagination and can see things you can't.
No! We have lots of historical data on how technology evolution works.
This is not some guess. You obviously have no understanding of how
society evolves over time.
I understand your opinion, but I disagree with it.
Post by Jack May
People rejected rail transit and tenements for reason. People have not
changed except their real income has gone way up and transit is therefore
more expensive in time than when people previously rejected. Rail
transit has been thoroughly rejected in the present because very few
people can afford it time cost.
Funny, there are other people who embrace transit and city living. Just
because the people closest to you hold an opinion does not make that opinion
inevitable or even correct.
Post by Jack May
High time cost is why pushing for transit, TODs, and tenement like
densities is extremely irrational. There is no basis to try that approach
and lot of history why it won't work and just be another very expensive
failure.
We know from research that people that hang on to the past are in the
bottom of society, have almost no capability to accomplish much of
anything, show no imagination, and just believe in clichés they don't even
understand. I meet these people at transportation planning meeting and am
astounded how stupid and unimaginative they are.
And then there are people whose imaginations are fired by the best of the
past, present, and future, not rejecting anything because of the time that
it came for, nor embracing it for that reason.
Post by Jack May
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
That approach is a guaranteed failure. There is no future in the past.
Baloney. You can't progress if you insist on throwing out everything older
than ten years.
Post by Jack May
Post by Amy Blankenship
For one thing, cars and miles of pavements aren't any newer technology
than say diesel train engines. For another, we have to backtrack all the
time when we realize that rushing in where angels fear to tread isn't
necessarily wise in every instance. Please review the thread on
antibiotic resistance. Your childlike trust in the latest technology went
out of vogue in the fifties, speaking of living in the past.
Now you are showing your ignorance of technology and society evolution.
You even do the usual ploy those ignorant of history by trying to isolate
it down to one component, the engine, when it is the overall
transportation system characteristics that determines technological
evolution.
You pretend that the characteristics of the American transportation system
result in an efficient, workable system, when in fact, it is hard to imagine
one that would be worse.
Post by Jack May
Let me repeat my URL that shows rail peaked a century ago, car and roads
much later. The next big technology peak in transportation appears with
high certainty to be use of technology to solve the problems of roads and
cars. That is not shown in the graph but rather a hair brain Maglev guess.
http://phe.rockefeller.edu/TIP_transport/transport.pdf
No, that's not biased ;-)
Post by Jack May
People hated dense tenements at the turn of the last century and they are
highly unlikely to suddenly want to live that way again. We have zero
examples, outside of religious cults, of technology evolution ever
reversing and going back to the past. There is no chance that returning
to the past with rail, TODs, and tenements will be the first to be totally
different from all past history.
No one is asking people to live in the last century. For one thing, time
travel at a macro level hasn't been invented, as far as most of us know.

But, yes, things have reversed back to the past. Ever hear of the Middle
Ages? Even if we wanted to always jump on the latest technology and take it
to the nth degree, history has shown us that events sometimes intervene.

More recently, physicians have learned that you can't just throw antibiotics
at everything. Farmers have learned that overuse of pesticides and
artificial fertilizers can be worse than not using them at all. We eat
Mercury in our fish because nobody can restrain industry from puking out
toxic chemicals.

-Amy
george conklin
2007-10-11 10:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
People hated dense tenements at the turn of the last century and they are
highly unlikely to suddenly want to live that way again.
Well, the 1% who want to purchased over-priced condos on a rail line are
held up as marvels of the future by planners and often by 23-year-old
newspaper reporters out for a story.
george conklin
2007-10-10 10:49:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
Post by Amy Blankenship
Post by Jack May
--At the end, I asked the crowd to vote one way or the other. The cons
had it - by a landslide. In a logical world shaped by what the mass of
people want...
People don't want what is logical. That's like thinking people might
start deciding what type of person might be the best life partner and
then seek out that type of mate rather than go bar-hopping.
Going back to replicating the 19th century with rail, TODs, and tenement
type housing is extremely irrational usually wanted by people that have no
imagination, no understanding of technology and no capability to solve
problems.
That approach is a guaranteed failure. There is no future in the past.
That may be why the planners overwhelming rejected the people that wanted
go down such a path of incompetence.
BTW, it looks like life partners are best chosen by smell even though the
people are unaware that they are smelling anything. The smell transmits
DNA information which people somehow characterize which research has shown
appears to be a good technique for determining a good match.
Maybe bar hopping is actually a good search process after all. Apparently
when we totally lose control and fall deeply, madly in love, it is driven
by a good match between the DNA clues in the smell of each other.
There is evidence for this though I don't know how solid the research is.
Women who are roommates find their periods synchronize, but the reasons are
not clear. Nor is the role of smell in human reproduction.
Enough Already
2007-10-27 01:34:07 UTC
Permalink
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/09/DDJDSJVUJ...
--Bad news: Unless the experts are wrong, California suburbs will continue
to sprawl beyond the horizon......
--This isn't an arcane topic: California's population is now 36 million, and
demographers expect us to hit 59 million by 2032. If we follow the mold of
the past 50 years, most of those folks will be housed in single-family homes
in suburban tracts, more and more of them tucked behind sound walls or
gates.
Folks, why not stop RIGHT THERE? Stop pretending this absurd, life-
draining increase is natural or acceptable!

More global birth control - meaning dedicated use of it, not just
casual choices - is the only real solution to supply/demand
nightmares. How long will planners remain passive about people's
"right" to breed far beyond carrying-capacity? The sacredness of that
choice is wearing thin with 75 million more humans chasing shrinking
habitat each year.

Is there a conspiracy to keep people employed in the population-
mitigation business? On some levels it sure looks like it. If this
level of growth was perpetrated by any other species, we'd call out
the National Guard.

E.A.

http://enough_already.tripod.com/

Nature does not exist to "meet growing needs."
george conklin
2007-10-27 12:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enough Already
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/09/DDJDSJVUJ...
--Bad news: Unless the experts are wrong, California suburbs will continue
to sprawl beyond the horizon......
--This isn't an arcane topic: California's population is now 36 million, and
demographers expect us to hit 59 million by 2032. If we follow the mold of
the past 50 years, most of those folks will be housed in single-family homes
in suburban tracts, more and more of them tucked behind sound walls or
gates.
Folks, why not stop RIGHT THERE? Stop pretending this absurd, life-
draining increase is natural or acceptable!
You still need to volunteer the help the population growth you don't like
by killing yourself.

Loading...