Congestion Pricing Increases Congestion

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp
"The imposition of a tax on motorists entering central London, UK has
failed to produce promised reductions in congestion, according to a
report released last month by London Assembly Conservatives. London
Mayor Ken Livingstone had promoted his congestion charge as the
solution to gridlock in the downtown area where, in 2003, traffic
crawled at an average rate of 10.6 MPH. Now that motorists are paying
£8 (US $16) to enter the area, that figure has dropped to 9.3 MPH. A
more accurate measurement of congestion that uses London's network of
plate-reading ANPR cameras showed that "excess delay" nearly doubled
from 0.87 minutes per mile in 2003 to 1.5 minutes per mile in
2006...."

"It seems to me that you can bandy around any amount of bogus figures and
all sorts of modeling you have done," Bray said.

Jack May

2007-12-19 05:06:36 UTC

"It seems to me that you can bandy around any amount of bogus figures and
all sorts of modeling you have done," Bray said.

Bray is obviously grasping at straws. The data is taken from the traffic
sensors probably in the traffic management center like we do in the US. Too
many eyes looking at the data to fake this type data.

The tricks being played to screw up travel for cars were reported in
discussions on uk.transport before congestion charging even began. The
essentially communist London Mayor Ken Livingstone is about as crooked as
they come. He will do anything to drag London back into the past to
eliminate cars.

My rule of thumb is that you don't need to determine if a transit advocate
is lying, you need only to determine how they are lying. That rule of
thumb is working well in London.

Amy Blankenship

2007-12-19 15:17:47 UTC

"It seems to me that you can bandy around any amount of bogus figures and
all sorts of modeling you have done," Bray said.

Bray is obviously grasping at straws. The data is taken from the traffic
sensors probably in the traffic management center like we do in the US.
Too many eyes looking at the data to fake this type data.
The tricks being played to screw up travel for cars were reported in
discussions on uk.transport before congestion charging even began. The
essentially communist London Mayor Ken Livingstone is about as crooked as
they come. He will do anything to drag London back into the past to
eliminate cars.
My rule of thumb is that you don't need to determine if a transit advocate
is lying, you need only to determine how they are lying. That rule of
thumb is working well in London.

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably beat
your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

Jack May

2007-12-19 20:09:20 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers (2
to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.

Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

George Conklin

2007-12-19 20:13:40 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers (2
to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

Now, now. Pat was only speaking for civilization, not engineering
solutions. His view is larger than merely engineering. Since he was
speaking for the universe and the world as a whole, anything he says is
good!!!! So there.

Amy Blankenship

2007-12-19 23:35:59 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers

Post by Jack May
to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

Please learn to follow a discussion.

Pat

2007-12-20 16:03:21 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers

Post by Jack May
to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

Hey, I'm not involved in this little lovers quarrel. What did I say
and when did I say it??? I'm not following this thread (but that's
probably a good thing).

As for the original premise, the conjestion pricing as described in
the article would be expected to create the situation it describes.
By selling an "admission ticket", people stay as long as they can --
just like at an amusement park or ski slope. In theory, it would
create a situation where people were reluctant to leave at all because
of the fee.

A more neutral approach would be to charge by the hour. People would
then get in and leave, knowing that they are being charged for it.
This would impact parking significantly if the fee was linear (say, so
much an hour) so people wouldn't want to waste money while parking for
long times. A system of staggered pricing, say $10 to enter plus $1
per hour would adjust for that.

To make a system work well, you'd need some sort of sophisticated
system: say $50 to enter plus a $40 rebate if you leave within an
hour, $30 rebate if you leave within 2 hours, but then start charging
$15/hour after the 2 hour period. That way people could make a quick
trip into the city (say for an appointment) but then would want to
leave. But that, then, would impact restaurants, etc. So one
question would have to be, what do yo want to achieve?

Anyway, I'm keeping out of this one and I'm finding my copy of
Freakanomics for my road trip on Friday.

Amy Blankenship

2007-12-20 18:30:19 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the
inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers

Post by Jack May
to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

Hey, I'm not involved in this little lovers quarrel. What did I say
and when did I say it??? I'm not following this thread (but that's
probably a good thing).

You didn't. That's why I told him to learn to follow a discussion...

Jack May

2007-12-20 19:51:33 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the
inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers

Post by Jack May
to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

Hey, I'm not involved in this little lovers quarrel. What did I say
and when did I say it??? I'm not following this thread (but that's
probably a good thing).
As for the original premise, the conjestion pricing as described in
the article would be expected to create the situation it describes.
By selling an "admission ticket", people stay as long as they can --
just like at an amusement park or ski slope. In theory, it would
create a situation where people were reluctant to leave at all because
of the fee.
A more neutral approach would be to charge by the hour. People would
then get in and leave, knowing that they are being charged for it.
This would impact parking significantly if the fee was linear (say, so
much an hour) so people wouldn't want to waste money while parking for
long times. A system of staggered pricing, say $10 to enter plus $1
per hour would adjust for that.
To make a system work well, you'd need some sort of sophisticated
system: say $50 to enter plus a $40 rebate if you leave within an
hour, $30 rebate if you leave within 2 hours, but then start charging
$15/hour after the 2 hour period. That way people could make a quick
trip into the city (say for an appointment) but then would want to
leave. But that, then, would impact restaurants, etc. So one
question would have to be, what do yo want to achieve?
Anyway, I'm keeping out of this one and I'm finding my copy of
Freakanomics for my road trip on Friday.

Jack May

2007-12-20 20:03:27 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the
inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers

Post by Jack May
to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

Hey, I'm not involved in this little lovers quarrel. What did I say
and when did I say it??? I'm not following this thread (but that's
probably a good thing).

True. I was replying to Amy.

She made a statement that was like the gullible English teacher I had at my
University. The statement essentially says we can not learn anything about
general characteristics of people and we have to spend a long time finding
about each individual.

With this gullible view of life, psychology, psychiatry, social science,
political science, archeology should all be shut down because there are no
general trends of people to study

Post by Pat
To make a system work well, you'd need some sort of sophisticated
system: say $50 to enter plus a $40 rebate if you leave within an
hour, $30 rebate if you leave within 2 hours, but then start charging
$15/hour after the 2 hour period. That way people could make a quick
trip into the city (say for an appointment) but then would want to
leave. But that, then, would impact restaurants, etc. So one
question would have to be, what do yo want to achieve?

These license plate readers are not perfect. It could read the plate going
in and fail to read it going out. Then the person would get a very high
bill for being there for days instead of the time they are really there.

Amy Blankenship

2007-12-20 23:34:04 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the
inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers

Post by Jack May
to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

Hey, I'm not involved in this little lovers quarrel. What did I say
and when did I say it??? I'm not following this thread (but that's
probably a good thing).

No, my statement was that it is uncivilized to use an expression whose
origin is in deciding how big a stick it was OK to beat your wife with,
moron!

Pat

2007-12-21 05:22:29 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you
probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the
inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small
numbers

to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

Hey, I'm not involved in this little lovers quarrel. What did I say
and when did I say it??? I'm not following this thread (but that's
probably a good thing).

True. I was replying to Amy.
She made a statement that was like the gullible English teacher I had at my
University. The statement essentially says we can not learn anything about
general characteristics of people and we have to spend a long time finding
about each individual.
With this gullible view of life, psychology, psychiatry, social science,
political science, archeology should all be shut down because there are no
general trends of people to study

To make a system work well, you'd need some sort of sophisticated
system: say $50 to enter plus a $40 rebate if you leave within an
hour, $30 rebate if you leave within 2 hours, but then start charging
$15/hour after the 2 hour period. That way people could make a quick
trip into the city (say for an appointment) but then would want to
leave. But that, then, would impact restaurants, etc. So one
question would have to be, what do yo want to achieve?

They could easily use the EZ-Pass system.

Amy Blankenship

2007-12-19 23:35:25 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers
(2 to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will
do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

Fine, if you're ok beating your wife with something the size of your thumb,
we're glad you're proud.

pigsty1953@yahoo.com

2007-12-21 17:58:46 UTC

Post by George Conklin
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2126.asp

Civilized people don't use rules of thumb. But I imagine you probably
beat your wife, so the imagery probably doesn't bother you.

In engineering we constantly use rules of thumb. Only the inexperienced
don't use rules of thumb. In complex, large systems only a small numbers (2
to 4) of key factors are accurate at predicting what the system will do.
Only the ignorant, inexperienced people can't figure out the main
characteristics of complex situations.

And Jackie Baby you remain nothing but an abject damn liar.

Your predictions are all damn lies.

Jackie Baby's damn lies:

no one uses transit

people that vote for transit are idiots

dense urban interchanges where a 1/2 mile is cleared from major urban
inttersections are the best way of moving traffic.

More of Jackie Baby's lies as they become available.

Randy

pigsty1953@yahoo.com

2007-12-19 18:55:22 UTC