Discussion:
The Article On sidewalks.
(too old to reply)
William
2007-07-10 22:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Please read the whole article.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm

NORTHBROOK, Ill. - Jennifer Lee-Olmstead doesn't understand why this
village wants to install sidewalks on Whitehall Drive, the cul-de-sac
where she lives.

"It just seems like such a waste of the town's resources to be
building sidewalks where residents don't really need them or want
them," she says. She would rather spend the money on the library,
schools and parks. "I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.

Village President Gene Marks thought he was giving people what they
wanted when this growing Chicago suburb decided to fill 40 miles of
gaps in its sidewalk system.

"All we heard for a long, long time from people in the village was,
'We want sidewalks,' " he says. The village notified residents in
April that it planned to begin work this summer. "We thought we'd give
everybody sidewalks and everybody would be happy," he says.

Then the complaints started to roll in. Homeowners began circulating
petitions demanding that their sidewalk-free neighborhoods stay that
way. More than 25 petitions have been submitted.


Similar battles are occurring in communities across the nation. City
officials say sidewalks make streets safer, coax people out of their
cars to walk and connect with their neighbors, but residents often
argue that they are unnecessary and can ruin the small-town feel of
their neighborhoods.

Hubert Frank, a retired computer programmer, collected the signatures
of all 11 of his neighbors on Whitehall Drive, including Lee-Olmstead,
saying the cul-de-sac doesn't need or want sidewalks. Safety isn't an
issue, he says, because there's little traffic, and sidewalks would
displace trees and flowers. Nor do residents want to pay half the
cost, which could exceed $1,000 for each owner.

Howard Handler collected signatures on The Strand, where a sidewalk
exists on one side of the street. Adding one on the other side "would
completely destroy the beauty of our street," he says.

Marks is reluctantly yielding to residents who have created a ruckus
here. "If people don't want sidewalks, we'll spend the money
elsewhere," he says. At a village meeting tonight, he plans to
announce that if a majority of homeowners on a street don't want
sidewalks, they won't get them.

There will be exceptions, Marks says: Sidewalks are required on
streets within a half-mile of schools and in all new developments.

Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.

Sidewalk spats elsewhere:

·Red Wing, Minn.: After the City Council created a sidewalk committee
to set priorities, it announced construction would begin this year on
sidewalks in some neighborhoods.

Surveyors are doing preliminary work now, and engineering director Ron
Rosenthal says they are hearing complaints from residents. "It seems
like they always don't want sidewalks in front of their house, but
they want them in front of everybody else's house," he says.

Councilman Mike Schultz says safety is his top concern. He parked near
an elementary school in an area with no sidewalks and watched students
walk down the middle of the street when classes ended, he says. "We
need to provide them a safe route," he says. "We also want to be
reasonable."

·Naples, Fla.: Plans to install sidewalks in Old Naples, one of the
city's oldest neighborhoods, prompted opponents to form a group called
Neighbors to Preserve Paradise. In a letter to the City Council, the
organization said the sidewalk plan would have "serious financial
implications for homeowners as well as further erode the environmental
and residential character" of the city.

Mayor Bill Barnett says the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists is
his priority. Some opponents say adding sidewalks will fuel crime, he
says, "but we're not buying that."

· Blackman Township, Mich.: After a months-long dispute, construction
is underway in a neighborhood that resisted sidewalk installation. The
township, which is just outside Jackson, considered condemnation
proceedings after some property owners refused to agree to easements.

Agreements were reached through "persistence and negotiations and
common sense," says township clerk Mike Thomas.

·Mukwonago, Wis.: In the 1980s, a proposal to install sidewalks along
Jefferson Street was so divisive that it led to a recall election. A
village president and three trustees were removed from office. Those
sidewalks were built.

Three years ago, there were new protests over another sidewalk plan.
Eventually those plans were abandoned, says village engineer Kurt
Peot. Village officials have "decided that in existing subdivisions,
they won't add sidewalks if they didn't previously have them," Peot
says. "The comments were primarily that it was a rural area and they
wanted to preserve the rural feel."





So, where to start? Well, I would first off like to say that if you
don't "need"
sidewalks then your basically saying that all you ever want to do is
drive if you need to get anywhere. This also implies that you are
never just going to need to go anywhere else in your "community" thats
within walking distance.

"Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says."

Suburbs have many families, no arguing against that.
So where is your three year old kid going to ride his tricycle for
example? I don't think he's old enough for riding in the street quite
yet. And whats this stuff about sidewalks "taking away the small town
feeling"? First of all, it's not a town lady, it's a suburb. Deal with
it. Anyways, I'm pretty sure small towns have sidewalks. Pat back me
up on this one? My mom grew up in Lincoln Nebraska and they had
sidewalks. Also, if you wanted to just walk to the local drug store to
pick up some things, where are you going to walk? I really don't think
it's a good thing to force people to walk on the street, or on
people's property. Especially when theres suposidly "flowers and
plants there.

Just because the people want something, doesnt mean it's a good thing
to give it to them,(or not give it to them in this matter).
William
2007-07-10 22:07:47 UTC
Permalink
So, where to start? Well, I would first off like to say that if you
don't "need"
sidewalks then your basically saying that all you ever want to do is
drive if you need to get anywhere. This also implies that you are
never just going to need to go anywhere else in your "community" thats
within walking distance.

"Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says."

Suburbs have many families, no arguing against that.
So where is your three year old kid going to ride his tricycle for
example? I don't think he's old enough for riding in the street quite
yet. And whats this stuff about sidewalks "taking away the small town
feeling"? First of all, it's not a town lady, it's a suburb. Deal with
it. Anyways, I'm pretty sure small towns have sidewalks. Pat back me
up on this one? My mom grew up in Lincoln Nebraska and they had
sidewalks. Also, if you wanted to just walk to the local drug store to
pick up some things, where are you going to walk? I really don't think
it's a good thing to force people to walk on the street, or on
people's property. Especially when theres suposidly "flowers and
plants there.

Just because the people want something, doesnt mean it's a good thing
to give it to them,(or not give it to them in this matter).
Joe the Aroma
2007-07-17 19:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
So, where to start? Well, I would first off like to say that if you
don't "need"
sidewalks then your basically saying that all you ever want to do is
drive if you need to get anywhere. This also implies that you are
never just going to need to go anywhere else in your "community" thats
within walking distance.
"Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says."
Suburbs have many families, no arguing against that.
So where is your three year old kid going to ride his tricycle for
example? I don't think he's old enough for riding in the street quite
yet. And whats this stuff about sidewalks "taking away the small town
feeling"? First of all, it's not a town lady, it's a suburb. Deal with
it. Anyways, I'm pretty sure small towns have sidewalks. Pat back me
up on this one? My mom grew up in Lincoln Nebraska and they had
sidewalks. Also, if you wanted to just walk to the local drug store to
pick up some things, where are you going to walk? I really don't think
it's a good thing to force people to walk on the street, or on
people's property. Especially when theres suposidly "flowers and
plants there.
Just because the people want something, doesnt mean it's a good thing
to give it to them,(or not give it to them in this matter).
Sidewalks and bike lanes I am completely in favor of. Why? Because they are
a helluva lot cheaper than some dopey public transportation system that
nobody will use.
Tadej Brezina
2007-07-11 07:48:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."

On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.

Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>
George Conklin
2007-07-11 10:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
All forms of transportation in a cul-de-sac? What is that? Further, when
people are faced with an enexpected bill of $1,000 from government, yes,
they object, and strongly. And then in most cities they are fined if the
snow is not removed by the homeowner, and if a tree root gets under a slap
of concrete, they are fined again and so forth and so on. No wonder people
object. We have people in a homeowner group who object to a $50 yearly
charge for keep a trail clean. They say they cannot afford it and vote
accordingly.
William
2007-07-11 13:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
All forms of transportation in a cul-de-sac? What is that? Further, when
people are faced with an enexpected bill of $1,000 from government, yes,
they object, and strongly. And then in most cities they are fined if the
snow is not removed by the homeowner, and if a tree root gets under a slap
of concrete, they are fined again and so forth and so on. No wonder people
object. We have people in a homeowner group who object to a $50 yearly
charge for keep a trail clean. They say they cannot afford it and vote
accordingly.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.

So 1000$ from each home owner living in the suburbs too
much to
save 4,768 people? If you want your suburb to have money and look nice
your going to have to give them some money.

"I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.

Wow, well I think giving kids who like walking to park an option
besides walking on the street
is worth at least some energy?

Mom:"Okay kids have fun at the park! Don't Go on the street please!

Timmy:"Alright well just walk on the grass then"

Mom: "No don't do that either!" "You don't want to Ruin People's
yards!"

Timmy:Let's just go place some Xbox then.
William
2007-07-11 16:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Heres an image of what these people are fighting for.
Loading Image...
Pat
2007-07-11 16:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Heres an image of what these people are fighting for.http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4527/picture2qd7.png
Oh give me a break. I grew up on a dead-end road in a small village
in the Berkshires, so level space was at a premium. My mother always
said to us "Go out in the street and play". That was our baseball
field and football field and bike-riding track and everything else --
except where we played in the woods or grabbed a few guns and went
hunting. No one ever knew where we were, we didn't have cell phones,
and we lived through it.

Roughing it wasn't walking in the streets. Roughing it was twisting
your ankle or getting cut 5 miles from home and no way to get home
except walking through the woods.

That street you are showing is busier than some, because it's paved
and striped, but that street doesn't need sidewalks. Those people
will get out of the way when a car goes by. Use the tax money for
something more important.
Pat
2007-07-11 16:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
All forms of transportation in a cul-de-sac? What is that? Further, when
people are faced with an enexpected bill of $1,000 from government, yes,
they object, and strongly. And then in most cities they are fined if the
snow is not removed by the homeowner, and if a tree root gets under a slap
of concrete, they are fined again and so forth and so on. No wonder people
object. We have people in a homeowner group who object to a $50 yearly
charge for keep a trail clean. They say they cannot afford it and vote
accordingly.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
So 1000$ from each home owner living in the suburbs too
much to
save 4,768 people? If you want your suburb to have money and look nice
your going to have to give them some money.
"I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Wow, well I think giving kids who like walking to park an option
besides walking on the street
is worth at least some energy?
Mom:"Okay kids have fun at the park! Don't Go on the street please!
Timmy:"Alright well just walk on the grass then"
Mom: "No don't do that either!" "You don't want to Ruin People's
yards!"
Timmy:Let's just go place some Xbox then.
Okay, another scenario for you.

"oh, Mommy, can we go to the park today"

"No, dear, we can't go because we can't get Timmy there by ourselves.
He's been awfully hard to handle ever since he ate the lead-based
paint".

"But Mommy, what happened to Timmy"

"He ate some paint chips that I didn't see. Then we couldn't take him
to the doctor's right away because we don't have health insurance and
our welfare benefits ran out".

"Why did that happen".

"Well, you see, there was no money for lead-paint control because some
people in the suburbs thought it was more important to put in
sidewalks so they didn't have to walk on the grass, rather than use
the same money for lead-paint control or other important social
issues".

"Why would they do that"

"Because they are racist and ego-centric and believe that the whole
world revolves around them. They forget that there are other people
out there with real problems".

"Mommy, I'm thirsty".

"Sorry, we don't have any milk and you can't drink the water here.
But I expect to have more WIC coupons tomorrow. Maybe you can have
some milk then."

"So I can't have milk and Timmy has lead poisoning because the people
in the suburbs want sidewalks."

"Yes, and that's why the schools are bad, too. They vote for lower
school taxes. They don't care, they send their kids to private,
Catholic schools".

"Mommy, that doesn't sound fair".

"But they want their sidewalks.".
William
2007-07-11 23:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
All forms of transportation in a cul-de-sac? What is that? Further, when
people are faced with an enexpected bill of $1,000 from government, yes,
they object, and strongly. And then in most cities they are fined if the
snow is not removed by the homeowner, and if a tree root gets under a slap
of concrete, they are fined again and so forth and so on. No wonder people
object. We have people in a homeowner group who object to a $50 yearly
charge for keep a trail clean. They say they cannot afford it and vote
accordingly.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
So 1000$ from each home owner living in the suburbs too
much to
save 4,768 people? If you want your suburb to have money and look nice
your going to have to give them some money.
"I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Wow, well I think giving kids who like walking to park an option
besides walking on the street
is worth at least some energy?
Mom:"Okay kids have fun at the park! Don't Go on the street please!
Timmy:"Alright well just walk on the grass then"
Mom: "No don't do that either!" "You don't want to Ruin People's
yards!"
Timmy:Let's just go place some Xbox then.
Okay, another scenario for you.
"oh, Mommy, can we go to the park today"
"No, dear, we can't go because we can't get Timmy there by ourselves.
He's been awfully hard to handle ever since he ate the lead-based
paint".
"But Mommy, what happened to Timmy"
"He ate some paint chips that I didn't see. Then we couldn't take him
to the doctor's right away because we don't have health insurance and
our welfare benefits ran out".
"Why did that happen".
"Well, you see, there was no money for lead-paint control because some
people in the suburbs thought it was more important to put in
sidewalks so they didn't have to walk on the grass, rather than use
the same money for lead-paint control or other important social
issues".
"Why would they do that"
"Because they are racist and ego-centric and believe that the whole
world revolves around them. They forget that there are other people
out there with real problems".
"Mommy, I'm thirsty".
"Sorry, we don't have any milk and you can't drink the water here.
But I expect to have more WIC coupons tomorrow. Maybe you can have
some milk then."
"So I can't have milk and Timmy has lead poisoning because the people
in the suburbs want sidewalks."
"Yes, and that's why the schools are bad, too. They vote for lower
school taxes. They don't care, they send their kids to private,
Catholic schools".
"Mommy, that doesn't sound fair".
"But they want their sidewalks.".
Timmy: Mom why don't we have sidewalks?

Mom: Because the mayor of our upper class suburb for some odd reason
only has enough money for either sidewalks or lead base control. Go
figure.

Timmy: But we don't need sidewalks because we live in the middle of
nowhere where no cars come by , SUVs have not populated America yet
and you don't care anyways because were used to workin with pops on
the farm with tractors and all!

Mom: Remember Timmy! This isn't Pat's Child hood! We live in the
suburbs were a lot of SUVs and helicopter parents like me roam, and
the only way of getting around is by car!

Timmy: But don't you get mad because you can't just take a nice walk
around the
neighborhood without worrying about cars and traffic or walking on
people's yard?

Mom: Timmy this is the suburbs! We don't take walks around the
neighborhood because then we might have to make social contact with
the other people who live around here!

Timmy: O how could I be so silly! Thanks mom!

Mom: Oh Timmy!
George Conklin
2007-07-11 17:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
All forms of transportation in a cul-de-sac? What is that? Further, when
people are faced with an enexpected bill of $1,000 from government, yes,
they object, and strongly. And then in most cities they are fined if the
snow is not removed by the homeowner, and if a tree root gets under a slap
of concrete, they are fined again and so forth and so on. No wonder people
object. We have people in a homeowner group who object to a $50 yearly
charge for keep a trail clean. They say they cannot afford it and vote
accordingly.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
Well, as far as I can tell, even in NYC you cross streets at the corner.
You fly over, no doubt.
Pat
2007-07-11 18:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency
in
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which
is
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have
to
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it
properly,
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to
think
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
of in that situation.
All forms of transportation in a cul-de-sac? What is that? Further,
when
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
people are faced with an enexpected bill of $1,000 from government, yes,
they object, and strongly. And then in most cities they are fined if
the
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
snow is not removed by the homeowner, and if a tree root gets under a
slap
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
of concrete, they are fined again and so forth and so on. No wonder
people
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
object. We have people in a homeowner group who object to a $50 yearly
charge for keep a trail clean. They say they cannot afford it and vote
accordingly.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
Well, as far as I can tell, even in NYC you cross streets at the corner.
You fly over, no doubt.
Well, as far as I can tell, even in NC you walk perpendicular to a
street to cross it and along the street if you are walking down it, as
in the picture. You fly over, no doubt.
Clark F Morris
2007-07-11 20:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
All forms of transportation in a cul-de-sac? What is that? Further, when
people are faced with an enexpected bill of $1,000 from government, yes,
they object, and strongly. And then in most cities they are fined if the
snow is not removed by the homeowner, and if a tree root gets under a slap
of concrete, they are fined again and so forth and so on. No wonder people
object. We have people in a homeowner group who object to a $50 yearly
charge for keep a trail clean. They say they cannot afford it and vote
accordingly.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
So 1000$ from each home owner living in the suburbs too
much to
save 4,768 people? If you want your suburb to have money and look nice
your going to have to give them some money.
"I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Wow, well I think giving kids who like walking to park an option
besides walking on the street
is worth at least some energy?
Note George's comment about homeowners not wanting the cost and
responsibility. I agree and vehemently believe that sidewalks should
be a government responsibility and that the adjoining property owner
should have NO maintenance and liability responsibilities. I too
would fight tooth and nail to prevent a sidewalk if I had to take care
of it or have my tax bill increased for it.
Joe the Aroma
2007-07-17 19:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
All forms of transportation in a cul-de-sac? What is that? Further, when
people are faced with an enexpected bill of $1,000 from government, yes,
they object, and strongly. And then in most cities they are fined if the
snow is not removed by the homeowner, and if a tree root gets under a slap
of concrete, they are fined again and so forth and so on. No wonder people
object. We have people in a homeowner group who object to a $50 yearly
charge for keep a trail clean. They say they cannot afford it and vote
accordingly.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
So 1000$ from each home owner living in the suburbs too
much to
save 4,768 people? If you want your suburb to have money and look nice
your going to have to give them some money.
That's *nationwide* dummy. If we want to save pedestrians, we should take
away the "right" to drive from these poor drivers.t
Post by William
"I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Wow, well I think giving kids who like walking to park an option
besides walking on the street
is worth at least some energy?
Mom:"Okay kids have fun at the park! Don't Go on the street please!
Timmy:"Alright well just walk on the grass then"
Mom: "No don't do that either!" "You don't want to Ruin People's
yards!"
Timmy:Let's just go place some Xbox then.
Actually you have a point here, but I don't see why they cost that much.
William
2007-07-19 02:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe the Aroma
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
All forms of transportation in a cul-de-sac? What is that? Further, when
people are faced with an enexpected bill of $1,000 from government, yes,
they object, and strongly. And then in most cities they are fined if the
snow is not removed by the homeowner, and if a tree root gets under a slap
of concrete, they are fined again and so forth and so on. No wonder people
object. We have people in a homeowner group who object to a $50 yearly
charge for keep a trail clean. They say they cannot afford it and vote
accordingly.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
So 1000$ from each home owner living in the suburbs too
much to
save 4,768 people? If you want your suburb to have money and look nice
your going to have to give them some money.
That's *nationwide* dummy. If we want to save pedestrians, we should take
away the "right" to drive from these poor drivers.t
Oh Okay so tell me how things are going to change "*nation wide*"
if you don't actually do anything?
Jack May
2007-07-11 16:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in a
society can produce. "
Societies and transportation evolves over time. Everything depends on
everything else in this evolution.

It is not degenerate and calling it degenerate indicates you have little or
no understanding of how society adapts over time.
Tadej Brezina
2007-07-17 14:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack May
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in a
society can produce. "
Societies and transportation evolves over time. Everything depends on
everything else in this evolution.
True commonplaces whom nobody actually questions here.
But thanks for pointing out.
Post by Jack May
It is not degenerate and calling it degenerate indicates you have little or
no understanding of how society adapts over time.
Thank god you (seemingly one of the few gifted ones here) have.
But I guess you once again didn't catch the point of my post.

When studies (the ones I know were conducted in Europe) show, that
adults value their car (and the structures needed to cater for it)
higher than the structures needed for kids, degeneration is just around
the block.
This shows in many aspects, like the anual spending, the place
prescribed for cars by building codes (no corresponding and adequate
minimum regulation for children), the opposition of parents when parking
space is considered to be transformed into space capable for independent
child's play and thus full of learning experience, ...
If a population (in this case human society) adapts more friendly
towards a machine than it adapts towards their own breed and their
chances to increase their development possibilities, than there is an
accute danger of societal degeneration!

Btw. degeneration is an integral part within evolution as just the word
evolution has no fixed algebraic meaning of either plus or minus, up or
down.

Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>
Joe the Aroma
2007-07-17 19:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in a
society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is of
course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to drive
to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>
Did you read the article? They will cost homeowners $1000 per house! That's
bullshit.
Tadej Brezina
2007-07-18 15:23:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe the Aroma
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in a
society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is of
course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to drive
to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>
Did you read the article? They will cost homeowners $1000 per house! That's
bullshit.
Don't have a clue about, if that is much or little in comparison to the
US level of prices?
Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>
Joe the Aroma
2007-07-18 18:38:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe the Aroma
Post by Tadej Brezina
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
Amazing example of how degenerated mindsets the automobile dependency in
a society can produce. "Well let's invest the money into parks- which is
of course a good thing, but have bad access to them, so that we have to
drive to the park to jog, play with kids, do whatever there."
On the other hand, if they would leave out the sidewalks and make the
whole road accessible to ALL forms of transport, and design it properly,
that would be a real leap forward. But that's probably too much to think
of in that situation.
Tadej
--
"Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du
sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie
schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat."
<Martina Diel in d.t.r>
Did you read the article? They will cost homeowners $1000 per house!
That's bullshit.
Don't have a clue about, if that is much or little in comparison to the US
level of prices?
It's a lot of money regardless.
drydem
2007-07-13 14:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
NORTHBROOK, Ill. - Jennifer Lee-Olmstead doesn't understand why this
village wants to install sidewalks on Whitehall Drive, the cul-de-sac
where she lives.
"It just seems like such a waste of the town's resources to be
building sidewalks where residents don't really need them or want
them," she says. She would rather spend the money on the library,
schools and parks. "I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Village President Gene Marks thought he was giving people what they
wanted when this growing Chicago suburb decided to fill 40 miles of
gaps in its sidewalk system.
"All we heard for a long, long time from people in the village was,
'We want sidewalks,' " he says. The village notified residents in
April that it planned to begin work this summer. "We thought we'd give
everybody sidewalks and everybody would be happy," he says.
Then the complaints started to roll in. Homeowners began circulating
petitions demanding that their sidewalk-free neighborhoods stay that
way. More than 25 petitions have been submitted.
Similar battles are occurring in communities across the nation. City
officials say sidewalks make streets safer, coax people out of their
cars to walk and connect with their neighbors, but residents often
argue that they are unnecessary and can ruin the small-town feel of
their neighborhoods.
Hubert Frank, a retired computer programmer, collected the signatures
of all 11 of his neighbors on Whitehall Drive, including Lee-Olmstead,
saying the cul-de-sac doesn't need or want sidewalks. Safety isn't an
issue, he says, because there's little traffic, and sidewalks would
displace trees and flowers. Nor do residents want to pay half the
cost, which could exceed $1,000 for each owner.
Howard Handler collected signatures on The Strand, where a sidewalk
exists on one side of the street. Adding one on the other side "would
completely destroy the beauty of our street," he says.
Marks is reluctantly yielding to residents who have created a ruckus
here. "If people don't want sidewalks, we'll spend the money
elsewhere," he says. At a village meeting tonight, he plans to
announce that if a majority of homeowners on a street don't want
sidewalks, they won't get them.
There will be exceptions, Marks says: Sidewalks are required on
streets within a half-mile of schools and in all new developments.
Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
Pedestrians deaths due to traffic crashes are normally
on roads (not sidewalks) where there is a high amount
of vehicular traffic. In residential roads where vehicular
traffic is about 15 mph - vehicles and pedestrian should
be able to share the same road in good weather conditions.
When vehicular traffic is over 25 mph - the risk of
pedestrian death in a traffic accident on a road where
both motor vehicle and pedestrian share the same
road is significantly higher.


The ROI on sidewalks wrt to pedestrian safety is high for
urban areas but debatable for the suburbs and low
for rural areas. Sidewalks by themselves do not provide
adequate pedestrian safety - to provide adequate
pedestrian safety a network of sidewalks must
be interlinked via crosswalks, other traffic calming
devices (e.g. pedestrian islands, speed humps,
rumble strips, stop signs, and traffic lights) and police
enforcement/monitoring.


Sidewalks come with a maintaince cost since a sidewalk
normally last only about 20 years before it has to be replace
-- a heavily used sidewalk may have to be replaced sooner.
So there is not only an initial cost but an annual capital
improvement program cost to replace the sidewalk. For
northern regions there is also liablity and maintance cost
of snow and ice removal. Heavily used sidewalks tend
to generate pedestrian trash (e.g. soda cans, beer bottles,
fast food waste products, tobacco product waste, pet
waste, and so forth) from create additional trash problem.
Thus a heavily used pedestrian sidewalk needs periodic
cleaning. Thus price of a successful pedestrian sidewalk,
like a road or transit system, only increases with its
success.
Amy Blankenship
2007-07-13 14:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by drydem
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
NORTHBROOK, Ill. - Jennifer Lee-Olmstead doesn't understand why this
village wants to install sidewalks on Whitehall Drive, the cul-de-sac
where she lives.
"It just seems like such a waste of the town's resources to be
building sidewalks where residents don't really need them or want
them," she says. She would rather spend the money on the library,
schools and parks. "I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Village President Gene Marks thought he was giving people what they
wanted when this growing Chicago suburb decided to fill 40 miles of
gaps in its sidewalk system.
"All we heard for a long, long time from people in the village was,
'We want sidewalks,' " he says. The village notified residents in
April that it planned to begin work this summer. "We thought we'd give
everybody sidewalks and everybody would be happy," he says.
Then the complaints started to roll in. Homeowners began circulating
petitions demanding that their sidewalk-free neighborhoods stay that
way. More than 25 petitions have been submitted.
Similar battles are occurring in communities across the nation. City
officials say sidewalks make streets safer, coax people out of their
cars to walk and connect with their neighbors, but residents often
argue that they are unnecessary and can ruin the small-town feel of
their neighborhoods.
Hubert Frank, a retired computer programmer, collected the signatures
of all 11 of his neighbors on Whitehall Drive, including Lee-Olmstead,
saying the cul-de-sac doesn't need or want sidewalks. Safety isn't an
issue, he says, because there's little traffic, and sidewalks would
displace trees and flowers. Nor do residents want to pay half the
cost, which could exceed $1,000 for each owner.
Howard Handler collected signatures on The Strand, where a sidewalk
exists on one side of the street. Adding one on the other side "would
completely destroy the beauty of our street," he says.
Marks is reluctantly yielding to residents who have created a ruckus
here. "If people don't want sidewalks, we'll spend the money
elsewhere," he says. At a village meeting tonight, he plans to
announce that if a majority of homeowners on a street don't want
sidewalks, they won't get them.
There will be exceptions, Marks says: Sidewalks are required on
streets within a half-mile of schools and in all new developments.
Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
Pedestrians deaths due to traffic crashes are normally
on roads (not sidewalks) where there is a high amount
of vehicular traffic. In residential roads where vehicular
traffic is about 15 mph - vehicles and pedestrian should
be able to share the same road in good weather conditions.
When vehicular traffic is over 25 mph - the risk of
pedestrian death in a traffic accident on a road where
both motor vehicle and pedestrian share the same
road is significantly higher.
The ROI on sidewalks wrt to pedestrian safety is high for
urban areas but debatable for the suburbs and low
for rural areas. Sidewalks by themselves do not provide
adequate pedestrian safety - to provide adequate
pedestrian safety a network of sidewalks must
be interlinked via crosswalks, other traffic calming
devices (e.g. pedestrian islands, speed humps,
rumble strips, stop signs, and traffic lights) and police
enforcement/monitoring.
Sidewalks come with a maintaince cost since a sidewalk
normally last only about 20 years before it has to be replace
-- a heavily used sidewalk may have to be replaced sooner.
So there is not only an initial cost but an annual capital
improvement program cost to replace the sidewalk. For
northern regions there is also liablity and maintance cost
of snow and ice removal. Heavily used sidewalks tend
to generate pedestrian trash (e.g. soda cans, beer bottles,
fast food waste products, tobacco product waste, pet
waste, and so forth) from create additional trash problem.
Thus a heavily used pedestrian sidewalk needs periodic
cleaning. Thus price of a successful pedestrian sidewalk,
like a road or transit system, only increases with its
success.
If you look at it as an investment in healthcare, then it could well pay for
itself. I doubt any studies have been done on the impact of a *good,
well-used* sidewalk system on health care costs.
Stephen Sprunk
2007-07-13 14:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by drydem
Sidewalks come with a maintaince cost since a sidewalk
normally last only about 20 years before it has to be replace
-- a heavily used sidewalk may have to be replaced sooner.
Huh? The sidewalks in my neighborhood have the contractor's name and year
of installation impressed in the concrete at various intervals, and most are
from 1900 to 1920. They're still there, with only minor work where utility
installation or tree roots have forced spot repairs. Overall, those
sidewalks are still in near-perfect condition. Newer ones are built with
bricks instead of concrete so that they can be repaired incrementally or so
utility crews can remove a section to do their work and reinstall them
afterwards. Brick sidewalks also perform much better in the rain, since
they're porous and thus don't contribute as much to runoff.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Those people who think they know everything
CCIE #3723 are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
K5SSS --Isaac Asimov
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
William
2007-07-14 03:09:36 UTC
Permalink
While sidewalk supporters say they give children safe places to walk,
encourage adults as well as kids to exercise and bind communities
together, others see sidewalks displacing flower beds and grass or
call them a waste of money

It's the selfish ones that chose convenience and safety for the
community over theri own personal property and wealth that make a
developer's job hell.
George Conklin
2007-07-14 10:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
While sidewalk supporters say they give children safe places to walk,
encourage adults as well as kids to exercise and bind communities
together, others see sidewalks displacing flower beds and grass or
call them a waste of money
It's the selfish ones that chose convenience and safety for the
community over theri own personal property and wealth that make a
developer's job hell.
You define anything you want as good for community, and everthing else as
bad. That is a very selfish notion.
William
2007-07-15 18:34:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by William
While sidewalk supporters say they give children safe places to walk,
encourage adults as well as kids to exercise and bind communities
together, others see sidewalks displacing flower beds and grass or
call them a waste of money
It's the selfish ones that chose convenience and safety for the
community over theri own personal property and wealth that make a
developer's job hell.
You define anything you want as good for community, and everthing else as
bad. That is a very selfish notion.
Well George, when it comes to people's lives, or people's flower beds.
I usually chose people's lives.
I'm not sure how you see this as selfish
Michael G. Koerner
2007-07-14 14:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
While sidewalk supporters say they give children safe places to walk,
encourage adults as well as kids to exercise and bind communities
together, others see sidewalks displacing flower beds and grass or
call them a waste of money
It's the selfish ones that chose convenience and safety for the
community over theri own personal property and wealth that make a
developer's job hell.
I always like to look into the comparative costs of sidewalks in an area for
the expected time before half of the squares are likely to have to be replaced
(let's say, between 50 and 75 years) against the costs of operating a fleet of
school buses over that same time. This is because I have noticed that I
seldom see school buses operating in areas with sidewalks while I often see
them operating in otherwise similar areas without them.

Looking at it from that standpoint, installing sidewalks is a fiscal no-brainer.

And in addition, sidewalks are useful to *EVERYONE* 24/7/365 while school
buses are only used by small, very select groups of individuals and at very
restrictive times.
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
RJ
2007-07-15 01:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael G. Koerner
This is because I have noticed that I
seldom see school buses operating in areas with sidewalks while I often see
them operating in otherwise similar areas without them.
You mean all the distance-based rules for busing are thrown out when
there are sidewalks?
George Conklin
2007-07-15 10:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJ
Post by Michael G. Koerner
This is because I have noticed that I
seldom see school buses operating in areas with sidewalks while I often see
them operating in otherwise similar areas without them.
You mean all the distance-based rules for busing are thrown out when
there are sidewalks?
Neighborhood schools are not used much these days due to the laws on
balance of poverty and race, despite the Supreme Court.
Michael G. Koerner
2007-07-15 15:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJ
Post by Michael G. Koerner
This is because I have noticed that I
seldom see school buses operating in areas with sidewalks while I often see
them operating in otherwise similar areas without them.
You mean all the distance-based rules for busing are thrown out when
there are sidewalks?
What do the words 'otherwise similar areas' mean to you?
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
RJ
2007-07-15 16:51:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael G. Koerner
Post by RJ
Post by Michael G. Koerner
This is because I have noticed that I
seldom see school buses operating in areas with sidewalks while I often see
them operating in otherwise similar areas without them.
You mean all the distance-based rules for busing are thrown out when
there are sidewalks?
What do the words 'otherwise similar areas' mean to you?
Vagueness in description.
Michael G. Koerner
2007-07-16 15:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by RJ
Post by Michael G. Koerner
Post by RJ
Post by Michael G. Koerner
This is because I have noticed that I
seldom see school buses operating in areas with sidewalks while I often see
them operating in otherwise similar areas without them.
You mean all the distance-based rules for busing are thrown out when
there are sidewalks?
What do the words 'otherwise similar areas' mean to you?
Vagueness in description.
Two adjacent, otherwise identically laid out and appearing
urban/semi-suburban neighborhoods.
One is in a municipality that requires sidewalks - kids must walk, ride
bicycles or be driven by their families to school because it is deemed to be
'safe'.
Other is in a municipality that does not require sidewalks - school district
must use school buses for the kids because it is deemed to be 'unsafe'.

Which incurs the greater taxpayer costs over the expected 50-75 year life of a
sidewalk square?
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
Pat
2007-07-16 18:24:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael G. Koerner
Post by RJ
Post by Michael G. Koerner
Post by RJ
Post by Michael G. Koerner
This is because I have noticed that I
seldom see school buses operating in areas with sidewalks while I often see
them operating in otherwise similar areas without them.
You mean all the distance-based rules for busing are thrown out when
there are sidewalks?
What do the words 'otherwise similar areas' mean to you?
Vagueness in description.
Two adjacent, otherwise identically laid out and appearing
urban/semi-suburban neighborhoods.
One is in a municipality that requires sidewalks - kids must walk, ride
bicycles or be driven by their families to school because it is deemed to be
'safe'.
Other is in a municipality that does not require sidewalks - school district
must use school buses for the kids because it is deemed to be 'unsafe'.
In two adjacent, otherwise identically liad out neighborhoods, one
with sidewalks and the other without, the one with sidewalks might
start out not having buses, but as soon as they see that the other
community has buses, they'll get buses too. Then they'll have
sidewalks AND buses.

Reality or logic will never impact a political situation -- but the
PTA will. Logic doesn't vote.
Post by Michael G. Koerner
Which incurs the greater taxpayer costs over the expected 50-75 year life of a
sidewalk square?
--
___________________________________________ ____ _______________
Regards, | |\ ____
| | | | |\
Michael G. Koerner May they | | | | | | rise again!
Appleton, Wisconsin USA | | | | | |
___________________________________________ | | | | | | _______________
RJ
2007-07-17 04:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael G. Koerner
Which incurs the greater taxpayer costs over the expected 50-75 year life of a
sidewalk square?
They don't last that long, especially when salt has to be applied to
keep them ice-free. (Keeping them ice free is part of the city
ordinances.)
Stephen Sprunk
2007-07-15 20:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
While sidewalk supporters say they give children safe places
to walk, encourage adults as well as kids to exercise and
bind communities together, others see sidewalks displacing
flower beds and grass or call them a waste of money
They eliminate grass, so that's a bad thing, but it's a trivial concern
compared to roads. Also, the runoff from a sidewalk should go into the
yard, whereas runoff from a road goes into the storm sewer system. If you
force people to walk on the roads, you need to build them wider to ensure
pedestrians' safety, so that's a net loss.

As far as flower beds, well, that just means you need to put them in a
different place; humans are remarkably adaptable creatures when it comes to
stuff like that. Some areas here put the sidewalks up against the curb;
other areas put them a few feet back from the curb and people put flower
beds between the two, which looks nicer, though it tends to result in
sprinklers watering the sidewalk at times (not coordinated, of course),
making them hostile to pedestrians. Most folks here, though, put their
flower beds around trees or up against the house so they're completely
unaffected by sidewalks.
Post by William
It's the selfish ones that chose convenience and safety for the
community over theri own personal property and wealth that
make a developer's job hell.
One of government's principal jobs is protecting the community's safety.
Most of our politicians have forgotten that, or are so in bed with private
interests (e.g. developers) that they ignore it.

There was a recent incident here where the city asked a neighborhood how to
spend money they'd allocated for improvements in the area. The residents
said they wanted sidewalks (their area was built before developers were
required to provide them), but the city overruled them, saying it was a
waste of money, and built a "park" instead. I say "park" because all they
did was acquire some vacant lots and put up a sign -- no landscaping,
playground, etc. Of course, without sidewalks the kids can't get there
safely, which was the exact reason folks wanted them in the first place...

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Those people who think they know everything
CCIE #3723 are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
K5SSS --Isaac Asimov
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
William
2007-07-14 03:13:21 UTC
Permalink
"While sidewalk supporters say they give children safe places to walk,
encourage adults as well as kids to exercise and bind communities
together, others see sidewalks displacing flower beds and grass or
call them a waste of money"

It's the selfish ones that chose their own personal property and
wealth over convenience and safety for the community that make a
developer's job hell.
drydem
2007-07-14 19:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by drydem
Sidewalks come with a maintaince cost since a sidewalk
normally last only about 20 years before it has to be replace
-- a heavily used sidewalk may have to be replaced sooner.
Huh? The sidewalks in my neighborhood have the contractor's name and year
of installation impressed in the concrete at various intervals, and most are
from 1900 to 1920. They're still there, with only minor work where utility
installation or tree roots have forced spot repairs. Overall, those
sidewalks are still in near-perfect condition. Newer ones are built with
bricks instead of concrete so that they can be repaired incrementally or so
utility crews can remove a section to do their work and reinstall them
afterwards. Brick sidewalks also perform much better in the rain, since
they're porous and thus don't contribute as much to runoff.
Amazingly sidewalks built long ago sometimes out live
today's newer sidewalk. We have major sidewalk failure
in my community even though the molded concrete
sidewalks were made less than 20 years ago. From
what I understand, the failure of new concrete sidewalk
construction is mainly due to shallow foundation and
poor drainage. The stress of the ground water freezing
and unfreezing underneath the concrete sidewalk
has caused it to crack and crumble away. From what
I've been told IF the developer had dug the sidewalk
foundation about 6 inches deeper and put 12 inches
of rocks instead of 6 inches of rocks THEN water drainage
would not have been a problem and sidewalk would
not buckle up so badly in the winter when the ground
water froze. The repeated stress on the concrete from the
freezing and unfreezing of ground water eventually cause
the sidewalks to crack and break up. There is
a new type of permable-rubber-like-sidewalk that
allows water to seep through and will bend to
ground pressure and tree roots - it's usage in the
Washington DC Area is still experimental though.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Those people who think they know everything
CCIE #3723 are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
K5SSS --Isaac Asimov
Stephen Sprunk
2007-07-14 22:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by drydem
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Huh? The sidewalks in my neighborhood have the contractor's
name and year of installation impressed in the concrete at
various intervals, and most are from 1900 to 1920. They're
still there, with only minor work where utility installation or tree
roots have forced spot repairs. Overall, those sidewalks are
still in near-perfect condition. Newer ones are built with bricks
instead of concrete so that they can be repaired incrementally
or so utility crews can remove a section to do their work and
reinstall them afterwards. Brick sidewalks also perform much
better in the rain, since they're porous and thus don't contribute
as much to runoff.
Amazingly sidewalks built long ago sometimes out live
today's newer sidewalk. We have major sidewalk failure
in my community even though the molded concrete
sidewalks were made less than 20 years ago. From
what I understand, the failure of new concrete sidewalk
construction is mainly due to shallow foundation and
poor drainage.
True, they don't build stuff like they used to... I think there's also a
difference in either the thickness or mix of concrete as well, probably
caused by using the lowest bidder for public projects.

The middle of my street has its original streetcar tracks, laid in 1908 and
encased in concrete, and there's not a single crack to be found anywhere on
the line. The original sidewalks haven't fared as well in places (a century
of tree growth will do that), but on the whole they're still in near-perfect
condition. The newer concrete sidewalks in neighboring areas are filled
with cracks, even in level sections, though the use of rebar keeps them
fairly smooth -- by transferring the buckling to joints and magnifying it.
Post by drydem
The repeated stress on the concrete from the freezing and
unfreezing of ground water eventually cause the sidewalks to
crack and break up. There is a new type of permable-rubber-
like-sidewalk that allows water to seep through and will bend
to ground pressure and tree roots - it's usage in the
Washington DC Area is still experimental though.
You get the same effect from brick, plus it's easier to repair and looks
nicer. Individual bricks are free to move up and down with the freeze
cycle, giving you an effectively elastic surface. Concrete fails
catastrophically if the stresses get too high -- and the tolerance seems to
be much lower with "modern" concrete than whatever they used a century ago.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Those people who think they know everything
CCIE #3723 are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
K5SSS --Isaac Asimov
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Joe the Aroma
2007-07-17 20:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Post by drydem
Post by Stephen Sprunk
Huh? The sidewalks in my neighborhood have the contractor's
name and year of installation impressed in the concrete at
various intervals, and most are from 1900 to 1920. They're
still there, with only minor work where utility installation or tree
roots have forced spot repairs. Overall, those sidewalks are
still in near-perfect condition. Newer ones are built with bricks
instead of concrete so that they can be repaired incrementally
or so utility crews can remove a section to do their work and
reinstall them afterwards. Brick sidewalks also perform much
better in the rain, since they're porous and thus don't contribute
as much to runoff.
Amazingly sidewalks built long ago sometimes out live
today's newer sidewalk. We have major sidewalk failure
in my community even though the molded concrete
sidewalks were made less than 20 years ago. From
what I understand, the failure of new concrete sidewalk
construction is mainly due to shallow foundation and
poor drainage.
True, they don't build stuff like they used to... I think there's also a
difference in either the thickness or mix of concrete as well, probably
caused by using the lowest bidder for public projects.
Of course they don't, now that everything is done by the government,
contractors and public unions need to use cheap materiels that need
maintenance every 5 years to stay in business.
Pat
2007-07-19 16:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
NORTHBROOK, Ill. - Jennifer Lee-Olmstead doesn't understand why this
village wants to install sidewalks on Whitehall Drive, the cul-de-sac
where she lives.
"It just seems like such a waste of the town's resources to be
building sidewalks where residents don't really need them or want
them," she says. She would rather spend the money on the library,
schools and parks. "I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Village President Gene Marks thought he was giving people what they
wanted when this growing Chicago suburb decided to fill 40 miles of
gaps in its sidewalk system.
"All we heard for a long, long time from people in the village was,
'We want sidewalks,' " he says. The village notified residents in
April that it planned to begin work this summer. "We thought we'd give
everybody sidewalks and everybody would be happy," he says.
Then the complaints started to roll in. Homeowners began circulating
petitions demanding that their sidewalk-free neighborhoods stay that
way. More than 25 petitions have been submitted.
Similar battles are occurring in communities across the nation. City
officials say sidewalks make streets safer, coax people out of their
cars to walk and connect with their neighbors, but residents often
argue that they are unnecessary and can ruin the small-town feel of
their neighborhoods.
Hubert Frank, a retired computer programmer, collected the signatures
of all 11 of his neighbors on Whitehall Drive, including Lee-Olmstead,
saying the cul-de-sac doesn't need or want sidewalks. Safety isn't an
issue, he says, because there's little traffic, and sidewalks would
displace trees and flowers. Nor do residents want to pay half the
cost, which could exceed $1,000 for each owner.
Howard Handler collected signatures on The Strand, where a sidewalk
exists on one side of the street. Adding one on the other side "would
completely destroy the beauty of our street," he says.
Marks is reluctantly yielding to residents who have created a ruckus
here. "If people don't want sidewalks, we'll spend the money
elsewhere," he says. At a village meeting tonight, he plans to
announce that if a majority of homeowners on a street don't want
sidewalks, they won't get them.
There will be exceptions, Marks says: Sidewalks are required on
streets within a half-mile of schools and in all new developments.
Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
·Red Wing, Minn.: After the City Council created a sidewalk committee
to set priorities, it announced construction would begin this year on
sidewalks in some neighborhoods.
Surveyors are doing preliminary work now, and engineering director Ron
Rosenthal says they are hearing complaints from residents. "It seems
like they always don't want sidewalks in front of their house, but
they want them in front of everybody else's house," he says.
Councilman Mike Schultz says safety is his top concern. He parked near
an elementary school in an area with no sidewalks and watched students
walk down the middle of the street when classes ended, he says. "We
need to provide them a safe route," he says. "We also want to be
reasonable."
·Naples, Fla.: Plans to install sidewalks in Old Naples, one of the
city's oldest neighborhoods, prompted opponents to form a group called
Neighbors to Preserve Paradise. In a letter to the City Council, the
organization said the sidewalk plan would have "serious financial
implications for homeowners as well as further erode the environmental
and residential character" of the city.
Mayor Bill Barnett says the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists is
his priority. Some opponents say adding sidewalks will fuel crime, he
says, "but we're not buying that."
· Blackman Township, Mich.: After a months-long dispute, construction
is underway in a neighborhood that resisted sidewalk installation. The
township, which is just outside Jackson, considered condemnation
proceedings after some property owners refused to agree to easements.
Agreements were reached through "persistence and negotiations and
common sense," says township clerk Mike Thomas.
·Mukwonago, Wis.: In the 1980s, a proposal to install sidewalks along
Jefferson Street was so divisive that it led to a recall election. A
village president and three trustees were removed from office. Those
sidewalks were built.
Three years ago, there were new protests over another sidewalk plan.
Eventually those plans were abandoned, says village engineer Kurt
Peot. Village officials have "decided that in existing subdivisions,
they won't add sidewalks if they didn't previously have them," Peot
says. "The comments were primarily that it was a rural area and they
wanted to preserve the rural feel."
So, where to start? Well, I would first off like to say that if you
don't "need"
sidewalks then your basically saying that all you ever want to do is
drive if you need to get anywhere. This also implies that you are
never just going to need to go anywhere else in your "community" thats
within walking distance.
"Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says."
Suburbs have many families, no arguing against that.
So where is your three year old kid going to ride his tricycle for
example? I don't think he's old enough for riding in the street quite
yet. And whats this stuff about sidewalks "taking away the small town
feeling"? First of all, it's not a town lady, it's a suburb. Deal with
it. Anyways, I'm pretty sure small towns have sidewalks. Pat back me
up on this one? My mom grew up in Lincoln Nebraska and they had
sidewalks. Also, if you wanted to just walk to the local drug store to
pick up some things, where are you going to walk? I really don't think
it's a good thing to force people to walk on the street, or on
people's property. Especially when theres suposidly "flowers and
plants there.
Just because the people want something, doesnt mean it's a good thing
to give it to them,(or not give it to them in this matter).
Here's an interesting thought, but it might only apply to New York.

If the town is "forcing" you to put in sidewalks, then one of two
things are happening. It is either on your land or it is in the
public right-of-way. If it is on your land, you could stop them from
installing it by telling them to get the heck off of your land. If it
is in the right-of-way, then it is really part of the road system, it
isn't "yours", and I don't believe they could force you to pay for it.

There are two exceptions to this. First, they could take your land
through eminent domain. But then it reverts to the "it's not your
land" clause. Or, it could be part of a special district. If so,
they could do this in the public right of way and charge you so much
per foot (or whatever), but that is usually an annual fee tacked on to
your tax bill, not a 1-time charge like a water hook up would be.
That would be excepted because it would be subject to referendum.

Granted they could force it was part of a site plan review. But to
just require it in NY would be very tough. In general, you would be
grandfathered and wouldn't have to do it. Maybe it's because we have
a lawyer hiding behind every tree in this state.
Pat
2007-07-19 16:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
NORTHBROOK, Ill. - Jennifer Lee-Olmstead doesn't understand why this
village wants to install sidewalks on Whitehall Drive, the cul-de-sac
where she lives.
"It just seems like such a waste of the town's resources to be
building sidewalks where residents don't really need them or want
them," she says. She would rather spend the money on the library,
schools and parks. "I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Village President Gene Marks thought he was giving people what they
wanted when this growing Chicago suburb decided to fill 40 miles of
gaps in its sidewalk system.
"All we heard for a long, long time from people in the village was,
'We want sidewalks,' " he says. The village notified residents in
April that it planned to begin work this summer. "We thought we'd give
everybody sidewalks and everybody would be happy," he says.
Then the complaints started to roll in. Homeowners began circulating
petitions demanding that their sidewalk-free neighborhoods stay that
way. More than 25 petitions have been submitted.
Similar battles are occurring in communities across the nation. City
officials say sidewalks make streets safer, coax people out of their
cars to walk and connect with their neighbors, but residents often
argue that they are unnecessary and can ruin the small-town feel of
their neighborhoods.
Hubert Frank, a retired computer programmer, collected the signatures
of all 11 of his neighbors on Whitehall Drive, including Lee-Olmstead,
saying the cul-de-sac doesn't need or want sidewalks. Safety isn't an
issue, he says, because there's little traffic, and sidewalks would
displace trees and flowers. Nor do residents want to pay half the
cost, which could exceed $1,000 for each owner.
Howard Handler collected signatures on The Strand, where a sidewalk
exists on one side of the street. Adding one on the other side "would
completely destroy the beauty of our street," he says.
Marks is reluctantly yielding to residents who have created a ruckus
here. "If people don't want sidewalks, we'll spend the money
elsewhere," he says. At a village meeting tonight, he plans to
announce that if a majority of homeowners on a street don't want
sidewalks, they won't get them.
There will be exceptions, Marks says: Sidewalks are required on
streets within a half-mile of schools and in all new developments.
Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
·Red Wing, Minn.: After the City Council created a sidewalk committee
to set priorities, it announced construction would begin this year on
sidewalks in some neighborhoods.
Surveyors are doing preliminary work now, and engineering director Ron
Rosenthal says they are hearing complaints from residents. "It seems
like they always don't want sidewalks in front of their house, but
they want them in front of everybody else's house," he says.
Councilman Mike Schultz says safety is his top concern. He parked near
an elementary school in an area with no sidewalks and watched students
walk down the middle of the street when classes ended, he says. "We
need to provide them a safe route," he says. "We also want to be
reasonable."
·Naples, Fla.: Plans to install sidewalks in Old Naples, one of the
city's oldest neighborhoods, prompted opponents to form a group called
Neighbors to Preserve Paradise. In a letter to the City Council, the
organization said the sidewalk plan would have "serious financial
implications for homeowners as well as further erode the environmental
and residential character" of the city.
Mayor Bill Barnett says the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists is
his priority. Some opponents say adding sidewalks will fuel crime, he
says, "but we're not buying that."
· Blackman Township, Mich.: After a months-long dispute, construction
is underway in a neighborhood that resisted sidewalk installation. The
township, which is just outside Jackson, considered condemnation
proceedings after some property owners refused to agree to easements.
Agreements were reached through "persistence and negotiations and
common sense," says township clerk Mike Thomas.
·Mukwonago, Wis.: In the 1980s, a proposal to install sidewalks along
Jefferson Street was so divisive that it led to a recall election. A
village president and three trustees were removed from office. Those
sidewalks were built.
Three years ago, there were new protests over another sidewalk plan.
Eventually those plans were abandoned, says village engineer Kurt
Peot. Village officials have "decided that in existing subdivisions,
they won't add sidewalks if they didn't previously have them," Peot
says. "The comments were primarily that it was a rural area and they
wanted to preserve the rural feel."
So, where to start? Well, I would first off like to say that if you
don't "need"
sidewalks then your basically saying that all you ever want to do is
drive if you need to get anywhere. This also implies that you are
never just going to need to go anywhere else in your "community" thats
within walking distance.
"Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says."
Suburbs have many families, no arguing against that.
So where is your three year old kid going to ride his tricycle for
example? I don't think he's old enough for riding in the street quite
yet. And whats this stuff about sidewalks "taking away the small town
feeling"? First of all, it's not a town lady, it's a suburb. Deal with
it. Anyways, I'm pretty sure small towns have sidewalks. Pat back me
up on this one? My mom grew up in Lincoln Nebraska and they had
sidewalks. Also, if you wanted to just walk to the local drug store to
pick up some things, where are you going to walk? I really don't think
it's a good thing to force people to walk on the street, or on
people's property. Especially when theres suposidly "flowers and
plants there.
Just because the people want something, doesnt mean it's a good thing
to give it to them,(or not give it to them in this matter).
BTW, FWIW, in the "small" town I live in, and in much of Upstate New
York; the cities and villages all have sidewalks that date to the time
the community was built. The sidewalk in front of my house went in in
about 1950 when the state reconfigured the road. They are in fine
shape, except the aprons near intersections that were rebuilt 2 years
ago by a very, very bad contractor. They need to be replaced
already. The sidewalks on the other streets in the neighborhood are
all getting on towards 100 years old. There is some lifting near some
of the bigger trees, but in general they are in fine shape.

But this is small-town America which you, William, can't get your
hands around. We have "paved" roads, but not in the sense that you
think of. They are all tar-and-chip over old tar-and-chip over old
tar-and-chip over old asphalt over brick. Only the main roads are
painted/striped. On most of the streets, it is perfectly safe for the
kids to go play in the road. On the main roads, you ride bikes on the
sidewalks. On the side streets, you ride on the streets.
William
2007-07-19 21:07:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
NORTHBROOK, Ill. - Jennifer Lee-Olmstead doesn't understand why this
village wants to install sidewalks on Whitehall Drive, the cul-de-sac
where she lives.
"It just seems like such a waste of the town's resources to be
building sidewalks where residents don't really need them or want
them," she says. She would rather spend the money on the library,
schools and parks. "I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Village President Gene Marks thought he was giving people what they
wanted when this growing Chicago suburb decided to fill 40 miles of
gaps in its sidewalk system.
"All we heard for a long, long time from people in the village was,
'We want sidewalks,' " he says. The village notified residents in
April that it planned to begin work this summer. "We thought we'd give
everybody sidewalks and everybody would be happy," he says.
Then the complaints started to roll in. Homeowners began circulating
petitions demanding that their sidewalk-free neighborhoods stay that
way. More than 25 petitions have been submitted.
Similar battles are occurring in communities across the nation. City
officials say sidewalks make streets safer, coax people out of their
cars to walk and connect with their neighbors, but residents often
argue that they are unnecessary and can ruin the small-town feel of
their neighborhoods.
Hubert Frank, a retired computer programmer, collected the signatures
of all 11 of his neighbors on Whitehall Drive, including Lee-Olmstead,
saying the cul-de-sac doesn't need or want sidewalks. Safety isn't an
issue, he says, because there's little traffic, and sidewalks would
displace trees and flowers. Nor do residents want to pay half the
cost, which could exceed $1,000 for each owner.
Howard Handler collected signatures on The Strand, where a sidewalk
exists on one side of the street. Adding one on the other side "would
completely destroy the beauty of our street," he says.
Marks is reluctantly yielding to residents who have created a ruckus
here. "If people don't want sidewalks, we'll spend the money
elsewhere," he says. At a village meeting tonight, he plans to
announce that if a majority of homeowners on a street don't want
sidewalks, they won't get them.
There will be exceptions, Marks says: Sidewalks are required on
streets within a half-mile of schools and in all new developments.
Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
�Red Wing, Minn.: After the City Council created a sidewalk committee
to set priorities, it announced construction would begin this year on
sidewalks in some neighborhoods.
Surveyors are doing preliminary work now, and engineering director Ron
Rosenthal says they are hearing complaints from residents. "It seems
like they always don't want sidewalks in front of their house, but
they want them in front of everybody else's house," he says.
Councilman Mike Schultz says safety is his top concern. He parked near
an elementary school in an area with no sidewalks and watched students
walk down the middle of the street when classes ended, he says. "We
need to provide them a safe route," he says. "We also want to be
reasonable."
�Naples, Fla.: Plans to install sidewalks in Old Naples, one of the
city's oldest neighborhoods, prompted opponents to form a group called
Neighbors to Preserve Paradise. In a letter to the City Council, the
organization said the sidewalk plan would have "serious financial
implications for homeowners as well as further erode the environmental
and residential character" of the city.
Mayor Bill Barnett says the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists is
his priority. Some opponents say adding sidewalks will fuel crime, he
says, "but we're not buying that."
� Blackman Township, Mich.: After a months-long dispute, construction
is underway in a neighborhood that resisted sidewalk installation. The
township, which is just outside Jackson, considered condemnation
proceedings after some property owners refused to agree to easements.
Agreements were reached through "persistence and negotiations and
common sense," says township clerk Mike Thomas.
�Mukwonago, Wis.: In the 1980s, a proposal to install sidewalks along
Jefferson Street was so divisive that it led to a recall election. A
village president and three trustees were removed from office. Those
sidewalks were built.
Three years ago, there were new protests over another sidewalk plan.
Eventually those plans were abandoned, says village engineer Kurt
Peot. Village officials have "decided that in existing subdivisions,
they won't add sidewalks if they didn't previously have them," Peot
says. "The comments were primarily that it was a rural area and they
wanted to preserve the rural feel."
So, where to start? Well, I would first off like to say that if you
don't "need"
sidewalks then your basically saying that all you ever want to do is
drive if you need to get anywhere. This also implies that you are
never just going to need to go anywhere else in your "community" thats
within walking distance.
"Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says."
Suburbs have many families, no arguing against that.
So where is your three year old kid going to ride his tricycle for
example? I don't think he's old enough for riding in the street quite
yet. And whats this stuff about sidewalks "taking away the small town
feeling"? First of all, it's not a town lady, it's a suburb. Deal with
it. Anyways, I'm pretty sure small towns have sidewalks. Pat back me
up on this one? My mom grew up in Lincoln Nebraska and they had
sidewalks. Also, if you wanted to just walk to the local drug store to
pick up some things, where are you going to walk? I really don't think
it's a good thing to force people to walk on the street, or on
people's property. Especially when theres suposidly "flowers and
plants there.
Just because the people want something, doesnt mean it's a good thing
to give it to them,(or not give it to them in this matter).
BTW, FWIW, in the "small" town I live in, and in much of Upstate New
York; the cities and villages all have sidewalks that date to the time
the community was built. The sidewalk in front of my house went in in
about 1950 when the state reconfigured the road. They are in fine
shape, except the aprons near intersections that were rebuilt 2 years
ago by a very, very bad contractor. They need to be replaced
already. The sidewalks on the other streets in the neighborhood are
all getting on towards 100 years old. There is some lifting near some
of the bigger trees, but in general they are in fine shape.
But this is small-town America which you, William, can't get your
hands around. We have "paved" roads, but not in the sense that you
think of. They are all tar-and-chip over old tar-and-chip over old
tar-and-chip over old asphalt over brick. Only the main roads are
painted/striped. On most of the streets, it is perfectly safe for the
kids to go play in the road. On the main roads, you ride bikes on the
sidewalks. On the side streets, you ride on the streets.
Does the picture of this suburb ( http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
) look anything like the dirt road you are describing? And it seems
the residents are a little fickle here.

"All we heard for a long, long time from people in the village was,
'We want sidewalks,' " he says. The village notified residents in
April that it planned to begin work this summer. "We thought we'd give
everybody sidewalks and everybody would be happy," he says.
Pat
2007-07-20 01:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by William
Please read the whole article.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
NORTHBROOK, Ill. - Jennifer Lee-Olmstead doesn't understand why this
village wants to install sidewalks on Whitehall Drive, the cul-de-sac
where she lives.
"It just seems like such a waste of the town's resources to be
building sidewalks where residents don't really need them or want
them," she says. She would rather spend the money on the library,
schools and parks. "I don't see why we're wasting the energy and
oxygen talking about sidewalks," she says.
Village President Gene Marks thought he was giving people what they
wanted when this growing Chicago suburb decided to fill 40 miles of
gaps in its sidewalk system.
"All we heard for a long, long time from people in the village was,
'We want sidewalks,' " he says. The village notified residents in
April that it planned to begin work this summer. "We thought we'd give
everybody sidewalks and everybody would be happy," he says.
Then the complaints started to roll in. Homeowners began circulating
petitions demanding that their sidewalk-free neighborhoods stay that
way. More than 25 petitions have been submitted.
Similar battles are occurring in communities across the nation. City
officials say sidewalks make streets safer, coax people out of their
cars to walk and connect with their neighbors, but residents often
argue that they are unnecessary and can ruin the small-town feel of
their neighborhoods.
Hubert Frank, a retired computer programmer, collected the signatures
of all 11 of his neighbors on Whitehall Drive, including Lee-Olmstead,
saying the cul-de-sac doesn't need or want sidewalks. Safety isn't an
issue, he says, because there's little traffic, and sidewalks would
displace trees and flowers. Nor do residents want to pay half the
cost, which could exceed $1,000 for each owner.
Howard Handler collected signatures on The Strand, where a sidewalk
exists on one side of the street. Adding one on the other side "would
completely destroy the beauty of our street," he says.
Marks is reluctantly yielding to residents who have created a ruckus
here. "If people don't want sidewalks, we'll spend the money
elsewhere," he says. At a village meeting tonight, he plans to
announce that if a majority of homeowners on a street don't want
sidewalks, they won't get them.
There will be exceptions, Marks says: Sidewalks are required on
streets within a half-mile of schools and in all new developments.
Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says a preliminary
analysis shows that 4,768 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes
in 2006.
·Red Wing, Minn.: After the City Council created a sidewalk committee
to set priorities, it announced construction would begin this year on
sidewalks in some neighborhoods.
Surveyors are doing preliminary work now, and engineering director Ron
Rosenthal says they are hearing complaints from residents. "It seems
like they always don't want sidewalks in front of their house, but
they want them in front of everybody else's house," he says.
Councilman Mike Schultz says safety is his top concern. He parked near
an elementary school in an area with no sidewalks and watched students
walk down the middle of the street when classes ended, he says. "We
need to provide them a safe route," he says. "We also want to be
reasonable."
·Naples, Fla.: Plans to install sidewalks in Old Naples, one of the
city's oldest neighborhoods, prompted opponents to form a group called
Neighbors to Preserve Paradise. In a letter to the City Council, the
organization said the sidewalk plan would have "serious financial
implications for homeowners as well as further erode the environmental
and residential character" of the city.
Mayor Bill Barnett says the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists is
his priority. Some opponents say adding sidewalks will fuel crime, he
says, "but we're not buying that."
· Blackman Township, Mich.: After a months-long dispute, construction
is underway in a neighborhood that resisted sidewalk installation. The
township, which is just outside Jackson, considered condemnation
proceedings after some property owners refused to agree to easements.
Agreements were reached through "persistence and negotiations and
common sense," says township clerk Mike Thomas.
·Mukwonago, Wis.: In the 1980s, a proposal to install sidewalks along
Jefferson Street was so divisive that it led to a recall election. A
village president and three trustees were removed from office. Those
sidewalks were built.
Three years ago, there were new protests over another sidewalk plan.
Eventually those plans were abandoned, says village engineer Kurt
Peot. Village officials have "decided that in existing subdivisions,
they won't add sidewalks if they didn't previously have them," Peot
says. "The comments were primarily that it was a rural area and they
wanted to preserve the rural feel."
So, where to start? Well, I would first off like to say that if you
don't "need"
sidewalks then your basically saying that all you ever want to do is
drive if you need to get anywhere. This also implies that you are
never just going to need to go anywhere else in your "community" thats
within walking distance.
"Sidewalks encourage people to walk, reduce pedestrian injuries and
deaths and create a sense of community, says Megan Lewis of the
American Planning Association, a research group for city and county
planners. "If you provide sidewalks, you're giving people a choice on
how they can get from one place to another," she says."
Suburbs have many families, no arguing against that.
So where is your three year old kid going to ride his tricycle for
example? I don't think he's old enough for riding in the street quite
yet. And whats this stuff about sidewalks "taking away the small town
feeling"? First of all, it's not a town lady, it's a suburb. Deal with
it. Anyways, I'm pretty sure small towns have sidewalks. Pat back me
up on this one? My mom grew up in Lincoln Nebraska and they had
sidewalks. Also, if you wanted to just walk to the local drug store to
pick up some things, where are you going to walk? I really don't think
it's a good thing to force people to walk on the street, or on
people's property. Especially when theres suposidly "flowers and
plants there.
Just because the people want something, doesnt mean it's a good thing
to give it to them,(or not give it to them in this matter).
BTW, FWIW, in the "small" town I live in, and in much of Upstate New
York; the cities and villages all have sidewalks that date to the time
the community was built. The sidewalk in front of my house went in in
about 1950 when the state reconfigured the road. They are in fine
shape, except the aprons near intersections that were rebuilt 2 years
ago by a very, very bad contractor. They need to be replaced
already. The sidewalks on the other streets in the neighborhood are
all getting on towards 100 years old. There is some lifting near some
of the bigger trees, but in general they are in fine shape.
But this is small-town America which you, William, can't get your
hands around. We have "paved" roads, but not in the sense that you
think of. They are all tar-and-chip over old tar-and-chip over old
tar-and-chip over old asphalt over brick. Only the main roads are
painted/striped. On most of the streets, it is perfectly safe for the
kids to go play in the road. On the main roads, you ride bikes on the
sidewalks. On the side streets, you ride on the streets.
Does the picture of this suburb (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-17-sidewalks_N.htm
) look anything like the dirt road you are describing? And it seems
the residents are a little fickle here.
"All we heard for a long, long time from people in the village was,
'We want sidewalks,' " he says. The village notified residents in
April that it planned to begin work this summer. "We thought we'd give
everybody sidewalks and everybody would be happy," he says.
Do our roads look like that. LOL. Heck no. Those roads are pretty
new.

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