Discussion:
The road to Hell is paved with growthism
(too old to reply)
Enough Already
2007-06-17 18:05:46 UTC
Permalink
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."

There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks. People just did what they needed to stay
alive. They gathered, grew or hunted food, and commerce was done
through barter. Life was simple and crude by today's standards, but
mostly sustainable.

After awhile, things naturally got more complicated, trading distances
increased and people sought more from life. Time passed and money
(coinage at first) became essential for pragmatic reasons. It was a
workable concept in theory, but nature had existed in balance without
it for millions of years. Nobody had been putting price tags on
resources they didn't fully understand.

Due to human nature, money was quickly prone to abuse. The
introduction of credit notes was a turning point, since it allowed
something from nothing in the short term (millions today still don't
see the danger of that.) The value of goods and services became skewed
and manipulated by greed, lies and sales techniques. Most
significantly, human activities became detached from the natural
systems that support them. Crafty people began believing that the
money supply could expand indefinitely without physical restrictions.
This was the beginning of "economic growth" as we know it. Petroleum
(the burning of ancient solar energy) allowed people to replace
pragmatic conservatism with greed.

For a time, during the Industrial Revolution and into the 20th
Century, economic growth was creating gains in human welfare.
Production efficiency increased as manufacturing scale grew. Many
burdens of dealing directly with nature were lifted. Hygiene improved,
death rates dropped and the population grew, and grew, and grew.
Throughout it all, nature was being stripped and poisoned but it
seemed intact enough to handle the load.

At some point (the exact time is debatable, but the 1950's are a good
benchmark) the benefits of growth and mass production were being lost
to growing waste and congestion. People were not feeling better off
than their predecessors. Large expenditures like homes and cars were
not getting easier to afford, despite tricks with cost of living
adjustments. National deficits were reaching unforeseen amounts. The
welfare state was getting out of control.

Today, people remain unaware that trade deficits reflect carrying-
capacity overload. Borrow from Peter to pay Paul economies can't last,
yet they are the foundation of modern trade. Free markets chase
distant resources and consumer populations like lawyers chasing
ambulances. Nations that have finally achieved zero population growth
call for more births when they should be seeking a steady state.

As of mid-2007 the world population is growing by over 70 million
annually. The old dream of perpetual economic growth persists, but, in
developed nations there would be relatively little GNP/GDP growth were
it not for population growth. The two have become synonymous and
people haven't paid attention. Outside of specific technical
innovations like computers, the economy can't grow and pay off debts
without increasing its physical size. This is not economic growth,
it's overpopulation. It's a cancerous process no matter how many at
the top of the pyramid benefit.

Nature is shrinking as economic expansion continues around the clock.
Nature's ability to sustain the physical underpinnings of the economy
is being destroyed daily. This is critical. We can't keep growing the
population and hope to solve problems like global warming,
overfishing, over-logging, traffic congestion, high home prices,
crowded schools, crowded prisons, crowded parks, crowded skies, noise
pollution and the general multiplication of ignorance. But few people
really take a stance against growthism. They just seek more of it to
fix its own ills. Economic growth steals from nature like a drug
addict steals from his neighbors.

A strange concept has been invented called "sustainable growth," which
tries to wish-away the physical realities of more consumption and
pretend the money supply can keep expanding. Urban planners came up
with the idea of "smart growth," which pretends that sprawl can be
controlled by redefining it as bad planning (not too many people).
They ignore the fact that denser cities only create denser crowds in
vacation spots. "Mitigation" is the buzzword for dealing with these
mathematically impossible predicaments. This environmental mitigation
itself creates jobs; just one example of wealth from thin air. For
details on the illusory value of money, see http://enough_already.tripod.com/money.htm.

The supposed benefits of more jobs and production are constantly
negated by longer work hours, more land use and more resource
consumption. The number of average people aware of this predicament
seems small. At least their actions don't reflect real awareness. The
usual thought-process is to stay fixated on money and blame the
government for mismanaging its allocation. Respect for scarcity was
largely forgotten when we started burning oil

Everyone should wake up and see growthism for what it really is:
constant overcrowding and depletion. Nobody is winning this zero sum
game. Birth control is really the only technology that can save the
planet.

E.A.

http://enough_already.tripod.com/

When animals breed out of control we call it overpopulation.
When humans breed out of control we call it "economic growth."
charles
2007-06-17 18:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks. People just did what they needed to stay
alive. They gathered, grew or hunted food, and commerce was done
through barter. Life was simple and crude by today's standards, but
mostly sustainable.
After awhile, things naturally got more complicated, trading distances
increased and people sought more from life. Time passed and money
(coinage at first) became essential for pragmatic reasons. It was a
workable concept in theory, but nature had existed in balance without
it for millions of years. Nobody had been putting price tags on
resources they didn't fully understand.
Due to human nature, money was quickly prone to abuse. The
introduction of credit notes was a turning point, since it allowed
something from nothing in the short term (millions today still don't
see the danger of that.) The value of goods and services became skewed
and manipulated by greed, lies and sales techniques. Most
significantly, human activities became detached from the natural
systems that support them. Crafty people began believing that the
money supply could expand indefinitely without physical restrictions.
This was the beginning of "economic growth" as we know it. Petroleum
(the burning of ancient solar energy) allowed people to replace
pragmatic conservatism with greed.
For a time, during the Industrial Revolution and into the 20th
Century, economic growth was creating gains in human welfare.
Production efficiency increased as manufacturing scale grew. Many
burdens of dealing directly with nature were lifted. Hygiene improved,
death rates dropped and the population grew, and grew, and grew.
Throughout it all, nature was being stripped and poisoned but it
seemed intact enough to handle the load.
At some point (the exact time is debatable, but the 1950's are a good
benchmark) the benefits of growth and mass production were being lost
to growing waste and congestion. People were not feeling better off
than their predecessors. Large expenditures like homes and cars were
not getting easier to afford, despite tricks with cost of living
adjustments. National deficits were reaching unforeseen amounts. The
welfare state was getting out of control.
Today, people remain unaware that trade deficits reflect carrying-
capacity overload. Borrow from Peter to pay Paul economies can't last,
yet they are the foundation of modern trade. Free markets chase
distant resources and consumer populations like lawyers chasing
ambulances. Nations that have finally achieved zero population growth
call for more births when they should be seeking a steady state.
As of mid-2007 the world population is growing by over 70 million
annually. The old dream of perpetual economic growth persists, but, in
developed nations there would be relatively little GNP/GDP growth were
it not for population growth. The two have become synonymous and
people haven't paid attention. Outside of specific technical
innovations like computers, the economy can't grow and pay off debts
without increasing its physical size. This is not economic growth,
it's overpopulation. It's a cancerous process no matter how many at
the top of the pyramid benefit.
Nature is shrinking as economic expansion continues around the clock.
Nature's ability to sustain the physical underpinnings of the economy
is being destroyed daily. This is critical. We can't keep growing the
population and hope to solve problems like global warming,
overfishing, over-logging, traffic congestion, high home prices,
crowded schools, crowded prisons, crowded parks, crowded skies, noise
pollution and the general multiplication of ignorance. But few people
really take a stance against growthism. They just seek more of it to
fix its own ills. Economic growth steals from nature like a drug
addict steals from his neighbors.
A strange concept has been invented called "sustainable growth," which
tries to wish-away the physical realities of more consumption and
pretend the money supply can keep expanding. Urban planners came up
with the idea of "smart growth," which pretends that sprawl can be
controlled by redefining it as bad planning (not too many people).
They ignore the fact that denser cities only create denser crowds in
vacation spots. "Mitigation" is the buzzword for dealing with these
mathematically impossible predicaments. This environmental mitigation
itself creates jobs; just one example of wealth from thin air. For
details on the illusory value of money, seehttp://enough_already.tripod.com/money.htm.
The supposed benefits of more jobs and production are constantly
negated by longer work hours, more land use and more resource
consumption. The number of average people aware of this predicament
seems small. At least their actions don't reflect real awareness. The
usual thought-process is to stay fixated on money and blame the
government for mismanaging its allocation. Respect for scarcity was
largely forgotten when we started burning oil
constant overcrowding and depletion. Nobody is winning this zero sum
game. Birth control is really the only technology that can save the
planet.
E.A.
http://enough_already.tripod.com/
When animals breed out of control we call it overpopulation.
When humans breed out of control we call it "economic growth."
I agree that much of our problem is over-population. We are crowding
the Earth and that makes it difficult to find the resources needed to
keep up a civilized standard of living.

In order for mankind to exist as we did ten thousand years ago with
the beginning of agriculture, we would have to suffer a population
crash debacle unlike anything we have ever experienced. At all costs,
I see that as something to avoid. Why advocate reverse social
evolution? To me, the solution is to build a modern, scientific and
much more advanced world-view and way of thinking which people
everywhere could accept. With it we would become united and be able
to build the kind of society that would enable us to get control of
population growth. As we did that, we could pour major resources into
space exploration and travel so that we could see the colonizing of
other plannets. Since we have reached the limit with our own planet,
we need to push on into the rest of the universe. Either that, or we
regress. We are better off to move on.

charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
Enough Already
2007-06-17 19:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
In order for mankind to exist as we did ten thousand years ago with
the beginning of agriculture, we would have to suffer a population
crash debacle unlike anything we have ever experienced. At all costs,
I see that as something to avoid.
It may be impossible to avoid, but it could be eased by "negative
population growth." Of course, getting average people to favor zero
population growth is hard enough. They see money and not much else.
Post by charles
Why advocate reverse social evolution?
I'm not - I'm just a realist. Nature never came with a contract
stating oil's time-line and the transition to something else. We're
running a big experiment here. Rome lasted much longer than any
industrial society so far, and they didn't even have to worry about
blackouts. Research shows that the Mayans probably caused their own
droughts by overbuilding. Nothing assures our avoidance of similar
fates.
Post by charles
To me, the solution is to build a modern, scientific and
much more advanced world-view and way of thinking which people
everywhere could accept. With it we would become united and be able
to build the kind of society that would enable us to get control of
population growth. As we did that, we could pour major resources into
space exploration and travel so that we could see the colonizing of
other plannets. Since we have reached the limit with our own planet,
we need to push on into the rest of the universe. Either that, or we
regress. We are better off to move on.
I mostly agree with you, except for colonizing other planets as a
solution. Sending up half a dozen astronauts is no easy thing, let
alone billions who may not want to leave. Space migration is like
trashing a hotel room and trying to leave before the maids notice.

Modernization has reduced birthrates, but more by accident than
design. I just don't think the bulk of humanity is up to the task
without others making tough choices. It will look like coercion in
many cases. Many laws exist to prevent people from hurting themselves
or others. It won't seem draconian to extend that to family size if
people _know_ what's at stake.

A practical solution is at local pharmacies in the form of
contraception. For nations lacking such amenities, humanitarian groups
should stop throwing food at poor people. Give them the means to limit
their total needs.

E.A.

http://enough_already.tripod.com/

Nature doesn't accept MasterCard.
(David P.)
2007-06-17 21:17:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enough Already
A practical solution is at local pharmacies in the form of
contraception. For nations lacking such amenities,
humanitarian groups should stop throwing food at poor
people. Give them the means to limit their total needs.
It would be much more equitable having each individual
fight the flu on his own, rather than waste resources
having armies fight each other over resources.
By stopping the suppression of influenza, everyone
could be on the front lines, instead of just a few good men.
.
.
--
(David P.)
2007-06-17 21:44:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by (David P.)
Post by Enough Already
A practical solution is at local pharmacies in the form of
contraception. For nations lacking such amenities,
humanitarian groups should stop throwing food at poor
people. Give them the means to limit their total needs.
It would be much more equitable having each individual
fight the flu on his own, rather than waste resources
having armies fight each other over resources.
By stopping the suppression of influenza, everyone
could be on the front lines, instead of just a few good men.
And it would be MUCH easier than trying to force
people to use contraception.
.
.
--
George Conklin
2007-06-18 00:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks.
Wrong again. You live in a dream world. People from England came to the
USA for that very reason, as did the other immigrants.
William
2007-06-18 03:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks.
Wrong again. You live in a dream world. People from England came to the
USA for that very reason, as did the other immigrants.
O yea George it wasn't because of the over ruling hypocrisy government
England had, it was because they thought
they could get more jobs over seas, right?
George Conklin
2007-06-18 11:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks.
Wrong again. You live in a dream world. People from England came to the
USA for that very reason, as did the other immigrants.
O yea George it wasn't because of the over ruling hypocrisy government
England had, it was because they thought
they could get more jobs over seas, right?
Immigrants streamed into the USA in search of jobs, just like today. First
it was for land, which was the equivalent.
William
2007-06-18 14:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks.
Wrong again. You live in a dream world. People from England came to
the
Post by William
Post by George Conklin
USA for that very reason, as did the other immigrants.
O yea George it wasn't because of the over ruling hypocrisy government
England had, it was because they thought
they could get more jobs over seas, right?
Immigrants streamed into the USA in search of jobs, just like today. First
it was for land, which was the equivalent.
Thats true, and it's not like the great depression had a glut of jobs
either.
Pat
2007-06-18 03:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks. People just did what they needed to stay
alive. They gathered, grew or hunted food, and commerce was done
through barter. Life was simple and crude by today's standards, but
mostly sustainable.
After awhile, things naturally got more complicated, trading distances
increased and people sought more from life. Time passed and money
(coinage at first) became essential for pragmatic reasons. It was a
workable concept in theory, but nature had existed in balance without
it for millions of years. Nobody had been putting price tags on
resources they didn't fully understand.
Due to human nature, money was quickly prone to abuse. The
introduction of credit notes was a turning point, since it allowed
something from nothing in the short term (millions today still don't
see the danger of that.) The value of goods and services became skewed
and manipulated by greed, lies and sales techniques. Most
significantly, human activities became detached from the natural
systems that support them. Crafty people began believing that the
money supply could expand indefinitely without physical restrictions.
This was the beginning of "economic growth" as we know it. Petroleum
(the burning of ancient solar energy) allowed people to replace
pragmatic conservatism with greed.
For a time, during the Industrial Revolution and into the 20th
Century, economic growth was creating gains in human welfare.
Production efficiency increased as manufacturing scale grew. Many
burdens of dealing directly with nature were lifted. Hygiene improved,
death rates dropped and the population grew, and grew, and grew.
Throughout it all, nature was being stripped and poisoned but it
seemed intact enough to handle the load.
At some point (the exact time is debatable, but the 1950's are a good
benchmark) the benefits of growth and mass production were being lost
to growing waste and congestion. People were not feeling better off
than their predecessors. Large expenditures like homes and cars were
not getting easier to afford, despite tricks with cost of living
adjustments. National deficits were reaching unforeseen amounts. The
welfare state was getting out of control.
Today, people remain unaware that trade deficits reflect carrying-
capacity overload. Borrow from Peter to pay Paul economies can't last,
yet they are the foundation of modern trade. Free markets chase
distant resources and consumer populations like lawyers chasing
ambulances. Nations that have finally achieved zero population growth
call for more births when they should be seeking a steady state.
As of mid-2007 the world population is growing by over 70 million
annually. The old dream of perpetual economic growth persists, but, in
developed nations there would be relatively little GNP/GDP growth were
it not for population growth. The two have become synonymous and
people haven't paid attention. Outside of specific technical
innovations like computers, the economy can't grow and pay off debts
without increasing its physical size. This is not economic growth,
it's overpopulation. It's a cancerous process no matter how many at
the top of the pyramid benefit.
Nature is shrinking as economic expansion continues around the clock.
Nature's ability to sustain the physical underpinnings of the economy
is being destroyed daily. This is critical. We can't keep growing the
population and hope to solve problems like global warming,
overfishing, over-logging, traffic congestion, high home prices,
crowded schools, crowded prisons, crowded parks, crowded skies, noise
pollution and the general multiplication of ignorance. But few people
really take a stance against growthism. They just seek more of it to
fix its own ills. Economic growth steals from nature like a drug
addict steals from his neighbors.
A strange concept has been invented called "sustainable growth," which
tries to wish-away the physical realities of more consumption and
pretend the money supply can keep expanding. Urban planners came up
with the idea of "smart growth," which pretends that sprawl can be
controlled by redefining it as bad planning (not too many people).
They ignore the fact that denser cities only create denser crowds in
vacation spots. "Mitigation" is the buzzword for dealing with these
mathematically impossible predicaments. This environmental mitigation
itself creates jobs; just one example of wealth from thin air. For
details on the illusory value of money, seehttp://enough_already.tripod.com/money.htm.
The supposed benefits of more jobs and production are constantly
negated by longer work hours, more land use and more resource
consumption. The number of average people aware of this predicament
seems small. At least their actions don't reflect real awareness. The
usual thought-process is to stay fixated on money and blame the
government for mismanaging its allocation. Respect for scarcity was
largely forgotten when we started burning oil
constant overcrowding and depletion. Nobody is winning this zero sum
game. Birth control is really the only technology that can save the
planet.
E.A.
http://enough_already.tripod.com/
When animals breed out of control we call it overpopulation.
When humans breed out of control we call it "economic growth."
I got bored reading your post. Do you have anything new to say for is
it just more of the "too many people" stuff that you say over and over
and over?

You total discount the very economics that accounts for the world as
we know it. We will NEVER run out of food. We will NEVER run out of
oil. We will NEVER run out of water or air. It just can't happen.
It is impossible.

Finally, population will control itself. It always has and it always
will. Until you can stop two 16-year-olds from making out in the back
seat of a car, you won't have any effective govermental limit on
childbearing.
The Trucker
2007-06-19 00:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks. People just did what they needed to stay
alive. They gathered, grew or hunted food, and commerce was done
through barter. Life was simple and crude by today's standards, but
mostly sustainable.
After awhile, things naturally got more complicated, trading distances
increased and people sought more from life. Time passed and money
(coinage at first) became essential for pragmatic reasons. It was a
workable concept in theory, but nature had existed in balance without
it for millions of years. Nobody had been putting price tags on
resources they didn't fully understand.
Due to human nature, money was quickly prone to abuse. The
introduction of credit notes was a turning point, since it allowed
something from nothing in the short term (millions today still don't
see the danger of that.) The value of goods and services became skewed
and manipulated by greed, lies and sales techniques. Most
significantly, human activities became detached from the natural
systems that support them. Crafty people began believing that the
money supply could expand indefinitely without physical restrictions.
This was the beginning of "economic growth" as we know it. Petroleum
(the burning of ancient solar energy) allowed people to replace
pragmatic conservatism with greed.
So far so good.....
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
For a time, during the Industrial Revolution and into the 20th
Century, economic growth was creating gains in human welfare.
Production efficiency increased as manufacturing scale grew. Many
burdens of dealing directly with nature were lifted. Hygiene improved,
death rates dropped and the population grew, and grew, and grew.
Throughout it all, nature was being stripped and poisoned but it
seemed intact enough to handle the load.
It was ok.
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
At some point (the exact time is debatable, but the 1950's are a good
benchmark) the benefits of growth and mass production were being lost
to growing waste and congestion. People were not feeling better off
than their predecessors. Large expenditures like homes and cars were
not getting easier to afford, despite tricks with cost of living
adjustments. National deficits were reaching unforeseen amounts. The
welfare state was getting out of control.
National deficits were very, very large during WWII but there were
surpluses after that. We did not see the return of large deficits
until the anti welfare Republicans hit town in the 1980's. The G.I.
bill and 20 year mortgages provided a means by which the common people
who, without these programs would have been renters forever, were able
ot actually become home owners and provide for future retirement by
doing so. This is what happened in the 50's. If you want to move
ahaead to where the wheels may have started coming off you will need
to move to the 60's when Kennedy cut taxes and started farting around
in Veitnam. Then Johnson took over and really through some gasoline
on the economy causing more inflation.
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
Today, people remain unaware that trade deficits reflect carrying-
capacity overload. Borrow from Peter to pay Paul economies can't last,
yet they are the foundation of modern trade. Free markets chase
distant resources and consumer populations like lawyers chasing
ambulances. Nations that have finally achieved zero population growth
call for more births when they should be seeking a steady state.
Here the Powers that be want immigration and more immigration so they can
hve cheap labor.
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
As of mid-2007 the world population is growing by over 70 million
annually. The old dream of perpetual economic growth persists, but, in
developed nations there would be relatively little GNP/GDP growth were
it not for population growth. The two have become synonymous and
people haven't paid attention. Outside of specific technical
innovations like computers, the economy can't grow and pay off debts
without increasing its physical size. This is not economic growth,
it's overpopulation. It's a cancerous process no matter how many at
the top of the pyramid benefit.
This, I think is a reality.
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
Nature is shrinking as economic expansion continues around the clock.
Nature's ability to sustain the physical underpinnings of the economy
is being destroyed daily. This is critical. We can't keep growing the
population and hope to solve problems like global warming,
overfishing, over-logging, traffic congestion, high home prices,
crowded schools, crowded prisons, crowded parks, crowded skies, noise
pollution and the general multiplication of ignorance. But few people
really take a stance against growthism. They just seek more of it to
fix its own ills. Economic growth steals from nature like a drug
addict steals from his neighbors.
http://Capitalism3.com
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
A strange concept has been invented called "sustainable growth," which
tries to wish-away the physical realities of more consumption and
pretend the money supply can keep expanding. Urban planners came up
with the idea of "smart growth," which pretends that sprawl can be
controlled by redefining it as bad planning (not too many people).
They ignore the fact that denser cities only create denser crowds in
vacation spots. "Mitigation" is the buzzword for dealing with these
mathematically impossible predicaments. This environmental mitigation
itself creates jobs; just one example of wealth from thin air. For
details on the illusory value of money, seehttp://enough_already.tripod.com/money.htm.
The supposed benefits of more jobs and production are constantly
negated by longer work hours, more land use and more resource
consumption. The number of average people aware of this predicament
seems small. At least their actions don't reflect real awareness. The
usual thought-process is to stay fixated on money and blame the
government for mismanaging its allocation. Respect for scarcity was
largely forgotten when we started burning oil
constant overcrowding and depletion. Nobody is winning this zero sum
game. Birth control is really the only technology that can save the
planet.
E.A.
http://enough_already.tripod.com/
When animals breed out of control we call it overpopulation.
When humans breed out of control we call it "economic growth."
I got bored reading your post. Do you have anything new to say for is
it just more of the "too many people" stuff that you say over and over
and over?
A very good point. Lots of whining and no winning.
Post by Pat
You total discount the very economics that accounts for the world as
we know it. We will NEVER run out of food. We will NEVER run out of
oil. We will NEVER run out of water or air. It just can't happen.
It is impossible.
And you are quite wrong unless your definition of the word "we" includes
only the very powerful who will manage to let the rest die or even hasten
their deaths. Ans as far as "economics", you must understand that the
profession of economics has always been a stlking horse for the rich.
They want the throngs of cheap labor standing outside the mansion gates
begging for a scrap of bread in return for cleaning the bathroom. And
then there are the truly religious priests who want the world to end so
they and the morons that follow them will be swept up into heaven while
all the non believers are cast into a lake of fire. Why don't you open
your eyeballs?
Post by Pat
Finally, population will control itself. It always has and it always
will.
Yes. In the past you simply tolerated ignorance and religion and the
population killed one another off. But what you gonna do when these
religious nut cases have a nuclear bomb?
Post by Pat
Until you can stop two 16-year-olds from making out in the back
seat of a car, you won't have any effective govermental limit on
childbearing.
Oh, horseshit. There are lots of forms of birth control and early term
abortion and the like. The problem is religious nut cases who WANT the
end of the world.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org
Pat
2007-06-19 16:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Trucker
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks. People just did what they needed to stay
alive. They gathered, grew or hunted food, and commerce was done
through barter. Life was simple and crude by today's standards, but
mostly sustainable.
After awhile, things naturally got more complicated, trading distances
increased and people sought more from life. Time passed and money
(coinage at first) became essential for pragmatic reasons. It was a
workable concept in theory, but nature had existed in balance without
it for millions of years. Nobody had been putting price tags on
resources they didn't fully understand.
Due to human nature, money was quickly prone to abuse. The
introduction of credit notes was a turning point, since it allowed
something from nothing in the short term (millions today still don't
see the danger of that.) The value of goods and services became skewed
and manipulated by greed, lies and sales techniques. Most
significantly, human activities became detached from the natural
systems that support them. Crafty people began believing that the
money supply could expand indefinitely without physical restrictions.
This was the beginning of "economic growth" as we know it. Petroleum
(the burning of ancient solar energy) allowed people to replace
pragmatic conservatism with greed.
So far so good.....
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
For a time, during the Industrial Revolution and into the 20th
Century, economic growth was creating gains in human welfare.
Production efficiency increased as manufacturing scale grew. Many
burdens of dealing directly with nature were lifted. Hygiene improved,
death rates dropped and the population grew, and grew, and grew.
Throughout it all, nature was being stripped and poisoned but it
seemed intact enough to handle the load.
It was ok.
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
At some point (the exact time is debatable, but the 1950's are a good
benchmark) the benefits of growth and mass production were being lost
to growing waste and congestion. People were not feeling better off
than their predecessors. Large expenditures like homes and cars were
not getting easier to afford, despite tricks with cost of living
adjustments. National deficits were reaching unforeseen amounts. The
welfare state was getting out of control.
National deficits were very, very large during WWII but there were
surpluses after that. We did not see the return of large deficits
until the anti welfare Republicans hit town in the 1980's. The G.I.
bill and 20 year mortgages provided a means by which the common people
who, without these programs would have been renters forever, were able
ot actually become home owners and provide for future retirement by
doing so. This is what happened in the 50's. If you want to move
ahaead to where the wheels may have started coming off you will need
to move to the 60's when Kennedy cut taxes and started farting around
in Veitnam. Then Johnson took over and really through some gasoline
on the economy causing more inflation.
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
Today, people remain unaware that trade deficits reflect carrying-
capacity overload. Borrow from Peter to pay Paul economies can't last,
yet they are the foundation of modern trade. Free markets chase
distant resources and consumer populations like lawyers chasing
ambulances. Nations that have finally achieved zero population growth
call for more births when they should be seeking a steady state.
Here the Powers that be want immigration and more immigration so they can
hve cheap labor.
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
As of mid-2007 the world population is growing by over 70 million
annually. The old dream of perpetual economic growth persists, but, in
developed nations there would be relatively little GNP/GDP growth were
it not for population growth. The two have become synonymous and
people haven't paid attention. Outside of specific technical
innovations like computers, the economy can't grow and pay off debts
without increasing its physical size. This is not economic growth,
it's overpopulation. It's a cancerous process no matter how many at
the top of the pyramid benefit.
This, I think is a reality.
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
Nature is shrinking as economic expansion continues around the clock.
Nature's ability to sustain the physical underpinnings of the economy
is being destroyed daily. This is critical. We can't keep growing the
population and hope to solve problems like global warming,
overfishing, over-logging, traffic congestion, high home prices,
crowded schools, crowded prisons, crowded parks, crowded skies, noise
pollution and the general multiplication of ignorance. But few people
really take a stance against growthism. They just seek more of it to
fix its own ills. Economic growth steals from nature like a drug
addict steals from his neighbors.
http://Capitalism3.com
Post by Pat
Post by Enough Already
A strange concept has been invented called "sustainable growth," which
tries to wish-away the physical realities of more consumption and
pretend the money supply can keep expanding. Urban planners came up
with the idea of "smart growth," which pretends that sprawl can be
controlled by redefining it as bad planning (not too many people).
They ignore the fact that denser cities only create denser crowds in
vacation spots. "Mitigation" is the buzzword for dealing with these
mathematically impossible predicaments. This environmental mitigation
itself creates jobs; just one example of wealth from thin air. For
details on the illusory value of money, seehttp://enough_already.tripod.com/money.htm.
The supposed benefits of more jobs and production are constantly
negated by longer work hours, more land use and more resource
consumption. The number of average people aware of this predicament
seems small. At least their actions don't reflect real awareness. The
usual thought-process is to stay fixated on money and blame the
government for mismanaging its allocation. Respect for scarcity was
largely forgotten when we started burning oil
constant overcrowding and depletion. Nobody is winning this zero sum
game. Birth control is really the only technology that can save the
planet.
E.A.
http://enough_already.tripod.com/
When animals breed out of control we call it overpopulation.
When humans breed out of control we call it "economic growth."
I got bored reading your post. Do you have anything new to say for is
it just more of the "too many people" stuff that you say over and over
and over?
A very good point. Lots of whining and no winning.
Post by Pat
You total discount the very economics that accounts for the world as
we know it. We will NEVER run out of food. We will NEVER run out of
oil. We will NEVER run out of water or air. It just can't happen.
It is impossible.
And you are quite wrong unless your definition of the word "we" includes
only the very powerful who will manage to let the rest die or even hasten
their deaths. Ans as far as "economics", you must understand that the
profession of economics has always been a stlking horse for the rich.
They want the throngs of cheap labor standing outside the mansion gates
begging for a scrap of bread in return for cleaning the bathroom. And
then there are the truly religious priests who want the world to end so
they and the morons that follow them will be swept up into heaven while
all the non believers are cast into a lake of fire. Why don't you open
your eyeballs?
Post by Pat
Finally, population will control itself. It always has and it always
will.
Yes. In the past you simply tolerated ignorance and religion and the
population killed one another off. But what you gonna do when these
religious nut cases have a nuclear bomb?
Post by Pat
Until you can stop two 16-year-olds from making out in the back
seat of a car, you won't have any effective govermental limit on
childbearing.
EA's paradox was observed a couple of hundred years ago. Bob Malthus
wrote a couple (at least) tracts on it and did the math. He showed
how we would have widespread starvation by the middle of the 1800s.
EA copies Bob's methodology and predicts that population will grow
expodentially and food will grow linearly -- hence creating the
crisis.

There are a number of problems with Malthus' theory. First, he does
inappropriate projections by projecting an expodential growth in
population with no limit. There are plenty of limits. Second, he
does not take into account any growth in the ability to grow more
food. In the US, we PAY farmers not to grow food and have so much
food that obesity is a problem, not starvation. There is no shortage
of food.

Although Malthus' theory has been shown to be wrong, that does not
subtract from it the importance of it. It was sort of like a second-
generation mathematical theory that was much richer than Von Thunen
and many of the earlier mathematical theories. It's a pretty straight
line from Von Thunen to Malthus to Nash to Freedman to Greenspan.

There is another problem with theories like this: Chaos. It is
possible to get somewhat accurate projections that go a few years into
the future. But projecting more than 10 or 15 years is just a waste
of time. There are too many variables. There is too little data.
Too many things can change. Heck, if you could project merely whether
the stock market would go up or down tomorrow, you would be incredibly
rich. And that would only be a projection 1 day in advance.

EA is trying to put new life into a debunked theory. He can spout off
all he wants, but that doesn't make it true.

One could take Malthus' desire to project food and population and take
it to the next level, but it would require a significant amount of
refinement of the formulas.
Post by The Trucker
Oh, horseshit. There are lots of forms of birth control and early term
abortion and the like. The problem is religious nut cases who WANT the
end of the world.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jeffersonhttp://GreaterVoice.org
(David P.)
2007-06-19 17:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat
EA's paradox was observed a couple of hundred years ago. Bob Malthus
wrote a couple (at least) tracts on it and did the math. He showed
how we would have widespread starvation by the middle of the 1800s.
EA copies Bob's methodology and predicts that population will grow
expodentially and food will grow linearly -- hence creating the
crisis.
There's more to the equation than just population
and food! What about everything else?!?
.
.
--
Amy Blankenship
2007-06-19 17:02:53 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Pat
EA's paradox was observed a couple of hundred years ago. Bob Malthus
wrote a couple (at least) tracts on it and did the math. He showed
how we would have widespread starvation by the middle of the 1800s.
EA copies Bob's methodology and predicts that population will grow
expodentially and food will grow linearly -- hence creating the
crisis.
There are a number of problems with Malthus' theory. First, he does
inappropriate projections by projecting an expodential growth in
population with no limit. There are plenty of limits. Second, he
does not take into account any growth in the ability to grow more
food. In the US, we PAY farmers not to grow food and have so much
food that obesity is a problem, not starvation. There is no shortage
of food.
I think there's no shortage of _calories_, but there is a big shortage of
_food_. This is one reason why there is an obesity problem. If you're
living on corn syrup and soybean oil, you _will_ get fat.
Robert
2007-06-20 21:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Here's an interesting perspective on Peak Oil:

Peak Oil, the concept of world wide oil production
increasing, peaking, and then declining, is based upon the 1956 work
of American geophysicist Marion King Hubbert. Globally, Peak Oil is
expected to occur for both petroleum and natural gas by the year 2025
with worldwide supplies steadily declining thereafter. As the volume
of oil reserves continue to fall, the demand for oil will continue to
rise, further enhancing its economical, political, and strategical
value. Our planet's population is like an overinflated balloon, one
made entirely from petrochemical plastics, and as the petrochemicals
disappear, so too will the foundation upon which our lives are built
and sustained. When the black gold begins to run out and there is not
enough to go around, supplies of black blood will begin to run dry. Of
the roughly five billion population increase since Spindletop, many if
not most will have to go.

When the United States invaded Iraq in 2003, it did so for
good reasons. In terms of national output, the U.S. had already passed
its own Peak Oil production point in 1971 and its peak natural gas
production in 1974. In addition, in 2003 the U.S. reached the half way
point toward complete depletion of its known oil reserves. Venezuela,
one of the United States' chief sources of petroleum, is in a similar
situation with its Peak Oil having occurred in 1970 while its halfway
point to depletion was also reached in 2003. Saudi Arabia, the nation
most commonly quoted as being the number one producer of petroleum in
the world, is expected to reach its Peak Oil in 2006 with a rapid
decline to mid-depletion by 2010. By invading Iraq for the second
time, the United States managed to take complete control of the Iraqi
reserves, and by 2005 the combined outputs from America's national and
occupational oil wells outpaced that of Saudi Arabia. This officially
made the U.S. the number one producer of oil in the world and
effectively castrated OPEC from ever imposing another oil crisis upon
the United States. While this may simply be a matter of moving to
higher levels on a sinking ship, the rest of the world is undeniably
feeling the pressure of being constrained below decks. As the United
States postures under the banners of democracy and world
globalization, it is, in effect, positioning itself for a not too
distant survival of the fittest. In this struggle, the main challenger
comes not from the Arab nations, but from the Far East.

China, America's number one competitor for world oil
supplies, is growing at an astounding rate. Meanwhile, roughly three
quarters of the world's known oil reserves are in the Middle East. Of
that, one third is located in Saudi Arabia with Iran having around
half that much and Iraq having slightly less than half. Between them,
these three countries represent about fifty percent of the oil on this
planet. Given its close ties to the Saudi's and its complete ownership
of Iraq, the United States has governing access to almost forty
percent of global petroleum supplies (not including Iran). Adding
Canadian, Venezuelan, and America's own reserves to the list means
that roughly five percent of the world's population is in control of
sixty percent of the planet's petroleum. China, on the other hand,
with approximately twenty percent of the planet's inhabitants,
possesses less than two percent of the world's oil within its borders.
So, at the same time that it is being superficially Walmartized into
an oriental version of the world's leading superpower, Beijing
continues to underwrite the American national debt in the hope that it
will be granted sufficient access to the black blood it needs to
satisfy its own petroleum addiction. The paying of tribute in precious
gems, livestock, and grains, once the basis of the Goryeo-Khitan War
in 1018, has now been transformed into the art of underwriting a
faltering empire's economy through inexpensive merchandise and secured
notes. Yet, when Peak Oil arrives globally and push comes to shove in
2025, who will be left standing?

Quoted from:

www.TheDragonOption.com

For more about Peak Oil, see topic:

www.TheDragonOption.com/chapter4.html#topic12
Amy Blankenship
2007-06-21 00:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert
Peak Oil, the concept of world wide oil production
increasing, peaking, and then declining, is based upon the 1956 work
of American geophysicist Marion King Hubbert.
What does that have to do with the caloric surpluses?

Mark M.
2007-06-18 10:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
(...)
Nobody is winning this zero sum
Post by Enough Already
game. Birth control is really the only technology that can save the
planet.
"Both the jayhawk and the man eat chickens, but the more jayhawks, the fewer
chickens, while the more men, the more chickens."

--Henry George
The Trucker
2007-06-18 22:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enough Already
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
(...)
Nobody is winning this zero sum
Post by Enough Already
game. Birth control is really the only technology that can save the
planet.
"Both the jayhawk and the man eat chickens, but the more jayhawks, the fewer
chickens, while the more men, the more chickens."
--Henry George
I do not know if we are approaching some limit to this expansion of "men"
given the fixed nature of natural resources. But the concern over global
warming and peak oil suggests that we may, perhaps, be pressing up against
a barrier that will actually reduce the availability of chickens in spite
of more capital development and increased division and specialization. It
may well be that rent redistribution is a proper thing for the sake of
equity, fainess, true freedom, liberty, and justice. But it will not
increase the amount of natural resources on whch we all ultimately depend.
I am very supportive of Georgist sentiments and methodolgy. But the Geo
solution will not make resource problems go away. The only cure for the
resource problem is education and enlightenment. It has to do, I think,
with the opening of the closed western mind. The one Bush and Robertson
are continually trying to slam shut.
--
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers
of society but the people themselves; and
if we think them not enlightened enough to
exercise their control with a wholesome
discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
them, but to inform their discretion by
education." - Thomas Jefferson
http://GreaterVoice.org
Amy Blankenship
2007-06-19 15:46:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enough Already
Let's examine what's really going on behind all the hype of "economic
growth."
There was a time when jobs didn't need to be "created" to keep people
busy and provide paychecks. People just did what they needed to stay
alive. They gathered, grew or hunted food, and commerce was done
through barter. Life was simple and crude by today's standards, but
mostly sustainable.
After awhile, things naturally got more complicated, trading distances
increased and people sought more from life. Time passed and money
(coinage at first) became essential for pragmatic reasons. It was a
workable concept in theory, but nature had existed in balance without
it for millions of years. Nobody had been putting price tags on
resources they didn't fully understand.
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